Identifying Modern Wootz

[ausjulius]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Matt,

There are two schools of thought about discussing the faking of weapons. One says that we should know as much as possible and should discuss these issues openly so that collectors can be better informed. The other says we need to not tell the fakers how to make better fakes, and therefore should share our thoughts selectively with just those we know are legit.

Almost certainly there are people who visit these pages to get ideas about what weapons to copy and how to make their new pieces look genuine and old. Folks can browse these pages without becoming a member, and some of them may be fakers of edged weapons. However, many of our members were casual visitors before eventually deciding to sign up and participate, so not every lurker has nefarious intent!

Using the PM function or email with other members is a good way to communicate if you have an item that particularly concerns you, and you want someone to give an opinion about it being real or fake.

Personally, I'm in the camp of not making it any easier for fakers to fool people and steal their money. There are some excellent resources and references on this site's static pages, as well as numerous discussions about wootz on the forum. Some of these are good "defensive" tools that can help collectors spot the obvious fakes. And remember it's not just the steel, but the hilt, scabbard, inscriptions, etc., that go into assessing whether an object is genuine. Broad knowledge helps and is perhaps the best defense against a faker.

Ian

"There are two schools of thought about discussing the faking of weapons. One says that we should know as much as possible and should discuss these issues openly so that collectors can be better informed. The other says we need to not tell the fakers how to make better fakes, and therefore should share our thoughts selectively with just those we know are legit. "

hmm dont want to sound nasty here but such silly though is a major issue..

The only useful way to anything productive is to compile as much factuial informaiton as exsists and then investigate any theory to its rational ends. making it available to everyone and to confront fakers actively.

Is it "fakers making better fakes" or ill informed poeple buying buying fakes in a very secretive competitive atmosphere?, and how are they illinfomred.. by a lack of discussion. ..

seems pretty obvious if you are "hiding bigbrain "discouveries" from your peers because of some abstract fear of a potential possiable.. ect that this attitude only helps people make fakes to begin with and intentionally stunts any sort of informaiton about these topics....
and is the reason faking happens in any case as most people financially involved in these topics have a vested interest in giving deceptive information and there is little free accessable informaiton to reference sometimes "an expert told me" ect... expert whos also the seller.. . .

if anyone can make a real good fake of an antique weapon thats actuially convincing and worth what its sold for then they can make new reproductions and sell them for as much as the antiques..

If you wanted to fake .. lets say a fine antique shamshir.. well you could sell your sword for the same as the real antiques without telling a single lie..
as i can safely say today nobody can produce an even rude copy of a shamshir and sell it for less than the originals.

fakery in antique arms is normaly either rather embarressing or its done by mixing and matching antique parts.

convincing fakery in antique arms ushaly focuses on mass produced items.. or "rare" variations of some item that already exsists.. like a bayonet with some "special" feature.. for example a 1907 smle bayonet with a sawback or some nonsence. or some rare markings.. a mosin nagant in tibetian service with some fake marking they invented that nobody can check ect ect.


in other realms of fakery there is a real profit to be made huge volumes (almost most chinese "antiques" sold today are fakes for example-chinese government even made alot of them in the past , and id say many marble greek and roman busts are fakes too and there is some corruption between some governm ent funded museums, fakers and auction houses in this area for sure.. .. fake ceramics , stone items,, ect are much easier and much more profitable to fake than antique arms (mostly).. which are exceptionally hard to fake convincingly when the buyer is informed. as the items are far more complex and have 100x or 1000x the reference points for assessment compared to a ceramic item.

This is in theory is a forum to discuss the collecting, use, construction and history of antique arms.

antique dealing, auctions and collecitng is full of scammers, frauds and fakery..
it has always been so. and its so sucessful because of the secretive, deceptive or competitive nature of many collectors and sellers and a lack of informaiton for newcomers and potential buyers in a hostile competitive environment. lets make an effort to reverse such a stagnant culture..

[Tim Mitchell]

Ausjulius, I have to agree with you. We do need to be up front about how to work out if a blade is a modern fake. There will be few really good fakes out there, but the method of handle attachment and materials, and koftgari methods can give a hint as to the age of the blade.

As far as wootz, analysis of the steel will often tell you if the blade is modern as modern steel is relatively high in Manganese but low in Sulphur and Phosphorus. Many of the old blades also had copper in significant levels and so these are a few things which will give a clue from the analysis. A tang with the handle removed can be analysed using atomic absorbtion spectroscopy without damage to the blade.

Another thing is that in old swords made from wootz you will almost always have a seam along the spine where the top of the ingot was. It makes an ugly seam and sometimes a groove and this is the first thing I would check to see if it was genuine or not. Modern smiths do not use this part of the ingot and grind it out, the old smiths didn't do this.

Most modern wootz is forged at low temperatures and so the pattern is frequently not like the old watering it is very dentritic in nature. Also because the old swords were forged in charcoal forges the temperature during forging was different and as a result many of the old blades will show changes in pattern type over the length of the blade.

Modern smiths are more inclined to forge the blade partly to shape and then grind it the rest of the way and so the watering will often be different towards the edge and will be more stripy as you get towards the edge. There are old blades like this but it is common in modern wootz blades.

Those are a few points for now, there are no doubt more which could be worked out but that is a good place to start and the more familiar with the original stuff the easier you will pick something which may be suspect.

[kronckew]

I agree with ian, the 'modern' cancel culture that believes banning information and destroying knowledge will not stop any undesired acts. Only exposing them through shared knowledge will.