Meaning in a Balinese keris

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for that Gustav.

It would be nice to know when that Troppenmuseum example was collected, and when the Jasper & Pirngadie example was collected. As I said, I have yet to see this gonjo treatment on an old keris, and these two additional examples are also recent.

I wonder if there might be some genuinely old examples somewhere.

Gustav, do you have a picture of the pedang you mention?

[Gustav]

Alan, I will ask the Tropenmuseum, if there is any additional information, but I think it quite surely is pre-1940.

The example from Jasper&Mas Pirngadie is pre-1930, quite surely pre-1920. It's quite close to the example from Ghiringelli in the treatment of Gonjo.

I have a picture of that Pedang, but cannot post it. You surely have seen that kind of Pedang - there is a Sekar Kacang directly above the scroll on Gonjo, Gandhik is plain.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It would be nice to know when that Troppenmuseum example was collected, and when the Jasper & Pirngadie example was collected. As I said, I have yet to see this gonjo treatment on an old keris, and these two additional examples are also recent.

I wonder if there might be some genuinely old examples somewhere.

Alan, i believe i know what your intention here with the word "old" is as you have expressed your usage of the word before, but it might be a bit problematic in general discussion, especially for people who might not be familiar with how you use the word. For most people anything antique (100 years of older) is generally considered "old". I assume your intention here is a bit older than that, yes?

[A. G. Maisey]

Firstly, a clarification:-

in my post #5 I wrote:-

"The first time I saw a keris with this extremely exuberant spiral ornamentation to the greneng was in the courtyard of a very well known Balinese m'ranggi and keris dealer, it was a recently made Madura keris, and it was hanging from the exposed framework of a small pavilion. When I asked why it was hanging there, along with a large number of other newly made keris I was told that all these keris were there to permit them to age naturally.

I have not seen this type of gonjo ornamentation in an old keris, only in recently made ones."

I was not referring to the similar exaggerated style that is shown in The Little Red Book.

It is the spiral treatment that I have only seen in recent keris.

The similar form that we see in the Ghiringhelli book, and again in the Jasper & Pirngadie book, looks like a forerunner of the spiral.

But what do I mean by "recent"?

Pretty spongy sort of expression, isn't it? Maybe I'm doing an imitation of Humpty Dumpty, you know:-

"When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

I need to stop reading Lewis Carroll.

With Javanese keris I probably think of recent as PBX era and later, but I think of post 1980 as kamardikan. Javanese people generally seem to think of keris after Sultan Agung as recent.

With Balinese keris I have come to the belief that after the puputans the rules of the game changed. I think of pre-puputan as still being a part of the old society, & thus an "old keris", and post-puputan as being a part of the new Bali, and thus a recent keris.

These are my own parameters, I'm not using something general here, just my own way of thinking about these things.

I've never given much thought to this spiral treatment in the greneng, but accepting the propensity for Balinese symbolism to be dominated by the number three, I am beginning to wonder just what symbolism might be intended to be conveyed by this substitution of a spiral for the more usual treatments found in the greneng.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Firstly, a clarification:-

in my post #5 I wrote:-

"The first time I saw a keris with this extremely exuberant spiral ornamentation to the greneng was in the courtyard of a very well known Balinese m'ranggi and keris dealer, it was a recently made Madura keris, and it was hanging from the exposed framework of a small pavilion. When I asked why it was hanging there, along with a large number of other newly made keris I was told that all these keris were there to permit them to age naturally.

I have not seen this type of gonjo ornamentation in an old keris, only in recently made ones."

I was not referring to the similar exaggerated style that is shown in The Little Red Book.

It is the spiral treatment that I have only seen in recent keris.

The similar form that we see in the Ghiringhelli book, and again in the Jasper & Pirngadie book, looks like a forerunner of the spiral.

But what do I mean by "recent"?

Pretty spongy sort of expression, isn't it? Maybe I'm doing an imitation of Humpty Dumpty, you know:-

"When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

I need to stop reading Lewis Carroll.

With Javanese keris I probably think of recent as PBX era and later, but I think of post 1980 as kamardikan. Javanese people generally seem to think of keris after Sultan Agung as recent.

With Balinese keris I have come to the belief that after the puputans the rules of the game changed. I think of pre-puputan as still being a part of the old society, & thus an "old keris", and post-puputan as being a part of the new Bali, and thus a recent keris.

These are my own parameters, I'm not using something general here, just my own way of thinking about these things.

I've never given much thought to this spiral treatment in the greneng, but accepting the propensity for Balinese symbolism to be dominated by the number three, I am beginning to wonder just what symbolism might be intended to be conveyed by this substitution of a spiral for the more usual treatments found in the greneng.

But isn't the example in the van Duuren book an example of this extremely exuberant spiral ornamentation. While we certainly can't jump to any conclusions on the age of this example from this one photograph i am willing to entertain the notion that this keris is very possibly pre-puputan. Other's mileage may vary.

[A. G. Maisey]

Klungkung in 1908 was the last of the early 20th century puputans.

Gustav has advised that the van Duuren example was donated in 1952, and his opinion is pre-1940.

J&P published in 1930 and Gustav has offered the possibility of pre-1920.

I cannot disagree with Gustav's estimates.

I've never seen that spiral ornamentation on any keris in Bali apart from the one I have already remarked on, I've never seen one anywhere else either, except for pictures in published works. Over the years there have been a few offered online, and those offerings were not old keris.

I'd like to see an example or two that dates with certainty from pre-1900, even better if we could get pre-1800. I'd like to hear some local Balinese opinions on it too, I did try to dig up an opinion or two some years ago, but the keris literate people I spoke with did not recognise the form.

[Gustav]

Keris from van Duuren's book was donated by the heirs of Willem Frederik Carel Cornelis Pijnacker Hordijk, who died in 1938. As almost always, it's not known where and when he collected it. I did find a resume of his life, there are no data of him working or traveling in Dutch East Indies.

But - his father was brother of Cornelis Pijnacker Hordijk (1847-1908), Governor-General of Dutch East Indies from 1888 to 1893. Judging from the names, there is a connection, possibly he could have been our guy's godparent.

So there is some chance this Keris is indeed pre-1908, and also some chance Willem Frederik Carel Cornelis just bought it in a curio shop in Amsterdam. Most likely we will never know.

[Gustav]

Possibly we should ask ourselves about the feature associated with Laler Mengeng, which also can be found on Gonjo.

[David]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Keris from van Duuren's book was donated by the heirs of Willem Frederik Carel Cornelis Pijnacker Hordijk, who died in 1938. As almost always, it's not known where and when he collected it. I did find a resume of his life, there are no data of him working or traveling in Dutch East Indies.

But - his father was brother of Cornelis Pijnacker Hordijk (1847-1908), Governor-General of Dutch East Indies from 1888 to 1893. Judging from the names, there is a connection, possibly he could have been our guy's godparent.

So there is some chance this Keris is indeed pre-1908, and also some chance Willem Frederik Carel Cornelis just bought it in a curio shop in Amsterdam. Most likely we will never know.

Like i said, i am willing to "entertain the notion". I agree that we probably will indeed never know. Thank for the additional info Gustav.