Dating and determination of origin of a sabre with a lion-snake mount

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2021, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Quoted from Britannica: ” Sekhmet, also spelled Sakhmet, in Egyptian religion, a goddess of war and the destroyer of the enemies of the sun god Re... Like other fierce goddesses in the Egyptian pantheon, she was called the “Eye of Re.” She was the companion of the god Ptah and was worshipped principally at Memphis. She was usually depicted as a lioness or as a woman with the head of a lioness, on which was placed the solar disk and the uraeus serpent.”

Victrix, this is a brilliant catch! and the more I look at it and in comparison with this hilt, the more compelling I think this explanation is.,
The French were obsessed with ancient Egypt and the mythology and as such would surely have adopted these elements in themes of special one off honor sabers such as this appears.

While the Uraeus was of course of cobra, the lack of hood here may simply be license or inadvertant omission. The goddess Sekhmet depicted as a lioness is certainly a compelling explanation for the pommel as typically the maned lion was popular. On the langet, I cant tell what these items are, they look like horns, but could they be solar rays?

There seems to be a palm and a lotus used as well, which may allude to Nile.

Richard R. · 21st July 2021, 02:06 PM

Decorations with speckled dots ("stippled" blade decoration) are known from luxury blades of Zlatoust (Russia) and were probably introduced there in 1816 by the master sword smith Wilhelm Nikolaus Schaaf, an emigrant from Solingen. Below you find two links to examples in the State Hermitage Museum in Saint Petersburg.

https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/...c+armor/661213

https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/...c+armor/668168

I know only few examples of very late 18th and early 19th century French blades with this kind of decorative element. As you can see on the sabre blade of General Kellermann (Link) and on the blade of Colonel Soulès Honour sabre (Sabre d'honneur) dating 1801 (picture attached).

https://collections.isere.fr/fr/muse...&pgn=7&pos=115

The sabre attributed to General Kellermann is said to have been worn by him at the Battle of Valmy on 20 September 1792. I am confused about the dating of this sabre or at least of the blade. Due to the blade shape and length as well as the blade groove all the way to the tip and the engraved pyramid, I would not have estimated this blade earlier than the second half of French Directory (1795-1799).

Accrording the "Musée de la Révolution française" Kellermann gave this sabre to his aide-de-camp, General Rigaud, who then passed it on to Sergeant de Gaulle, and bequeathed it to his grandson Frantz Goerg. This sword was apperently authenticated by Marshal Kellermann's granddaughter, Princess Ginetti born Henriette de Valmy in 1892, during an exhibition for the bicentenary of the Battle of Valmy (in 1992).

The time from 1792 to the authentication of this sabre in 1992 is very long and carries the risk of error and misunderstanding.

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2021, 04:48 PM

Richard, thank you for this additional information which is of course most interesting and salient to our efforts to properly identify this saber.
The Russian factor is certainly interesting and as previously noted, Russian styles definitely ran in close parallels with French in these times.

Here I would observe the note on the Solingen maker in Zlatoust who may have introduced this blade decorating style. It has been well known that many makers from Solingen went there, as well as to France (Klingenthal). While the stipple effect was as shown known on Russian blades, they certainly were on French as well, and clearly the clipped point, which again was a Solingen affectation are seen on these blades.

I think it is important to return to the decorating motif on this saber, which is a key factor in determining its probable classification in the present mounts.
Blades were of course often remounted, so these kinds of estimations need to focus on the mounts which typically lean toward more specific identification.

We have been discussing the possible motif on this saber as to honoring the Nile campaigns, and the most unusual lion head as well as serpent.
It is tempting to look at the pyramid on the motif of the sword just illustrated, and wonder at its connection as this blade predates those campaigns. However I would point out that by this time in the 18th century, there were strong masonic and fraternal affiliations throughout Europe, France in particular but I am unclear on Russian status. The pyramid is well known in Masonic symbology so that may be a possible reason for inclusion in motif.

While these added examples are of most interest, I remain inclined to a French origin for this saber of our discussion. The French were deeply interested and effected by Egyptian history and mythology and in their affection for neoclassic allegory seem likely to have used this lioness and serpent theme toward the motif on this with the Nile events in mind.

Richard R. · 21st July 2021, 06:14 PM

My initial conclusions based on my research into this sabre left me with a headache. At first glance, the mounting and decoration of this sabre spontaneously reminds me of 19th century Austro-Hungarian examples (see link).

http://www.waffensammlung-beck.ch/waffe208.html

Based on the scabbard shape, I would not have dated the scabbard earlier than the very late 18th century, but rather to the beginning of the 19th century.

But on the other hand, this sabre has been dated before 1797. If this sabre is really to be dated before Napoleon's Egyptian campaign, no respective influence can have taken place.

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2021, 07:23 PM

Richard, thank you for sharing your personal research already completed, which is most interesting aligned with our guesses and suggestions here. This rather expands the body of detail we are considering.

The Austro-Hungarian example is interesting in having similar zoomorphic theme with MANED lion and twin serpents and dated about two decades later.
It is often interesting to see how aesthetically similar styles and motif can diffuse widely in military fashion, of course a distinct characteristic of officers.

Of course I remain with my holding to the French honor saber probably one off, post Egyptian campaigns (probably c. 1805).

Richard R. · 21st July 2021, 08:57 PM

Hello Jim.
My research is still ongoing and has led to more questions than answers. For this reason, I am very grateful for your independent contributions. They give me interesting and helpful input for further considerations that I had not thought of.

Jim McDougall · 21st July 2021, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard R.

Hello Jim.
My research is still ongoing and has led to more questions than answers. For this reason, I am very grateful for your independent contributions. They give me interesting and helpful input for further considerations that I had not thought of.

Actually this is quite outside my normal field of study so I have learned a great deal here from the input from Mark, Victrix and Bryce as well as some very valuable private input from Mr. Richard Dellar, a well known author and authority on swords of England and France.
Your sharing of your own research findings have also been greatly appreciated.
I think we can feel pretty confident in the French resolution, but of course with one off examples, comparable examples are unlikely, so we remain at speculative situation.
Great discussion, and thank you for the opportunity to investigate this.

21st July 2021, 02:06 PM	#2
Richard R. Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 26	Blades with "stippled" blade decoration. Decorations with speckled dots ("stippled" blade decoration) are known from luxury blades of Zlatoust (Russia) and were probably introduced there in 1816 by the master sword smith Wilhelm Nikolaus Schaaf, an emigrant from Solingen. Below you find two links to examples in the State Hermitage Museum in Saint Petersburg. https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/...c+armor/661213 https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/...c+armor/668168 I know only few examples of very late 18th and early 19th century French blades with this kind of decorative element. As you can see on the sabre blade of General Kellermann (Link) and on the blade of Colonel Soulès Honour sabre (Sabre d'honneur) dating 1801 (picture attached). https://collections.isere.fr/fr/muse...&pgn=7&pos=115 The sabre attributed to General Kellermann is said to have been worn by him at the Battle of Valmy on 20 September 1792. I am confused about the dating of this sabre or at least of the blade. Due to the blade shape and length as well as the blade groove all the way to the tip and the engraved pyramid, I would not have estimated this blade earlier than the second half of French Directory (1795-1799). Accrording the "Musée de la Révolution française" Kellermann gave this sabre to his aide-de-camp, General Rigaud, who then passed it on to Sergeant de Gaulle, and bequeathed it to his grandson Frantz Goerg. This sword was apperently authenticated by Marshal Kellermann's granddaughter, Princess Ginetti born Henriette de Valmy in 1892, during an exhibition for the bicentenary of the Battle of Valmy (in 1992). The time from 1792 to the authentication of this sabre in 1992 is very long and carries the risk of error and misunderstanding. Attached Images

21st July 2021, 04:48 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Richard, thank you for this additional information which is of course most interesting and salient to our efforts to properly identify this saber. The Russian factor is certainly interesting and as previously noted, Russian styles definitely ran in close parallels with French in these times. Here I would observe the note on the Solingen maker in Zlatoust who may have introduced this blade decorating style. It has been well known that many makers from Solingen went there, as well as to France (Klingenthal). While the stipple effect was as shown known on Russian blades, they certainly were on French as well, and clearly the clipped point, which again was a Solingen affectation are seen on these blades. I think it is important to return to the decorating motif on this saber, which is a key factor in determining its probable classification in the present mounts. Blades were of course often remounted, so these kinds of estimations need to focus on the mounts which typically lean toward more specific identification. We have been discussing the possible motif on this saber as to honoring the Nile campaigns, and the most unusual lion head as well as serpent. It is tempting to look at the pyramid on the motif of the sword just illustrated, and wonder at its connection as this blade predates those campaigns. However I would point out that by this time in the 18th century, there were strong masonic and fraternal affiliations throughout Europe, France in particular but I am unclear on Russian status. The pyramid is well known in Masonic symbology so that may be a possible reason for inclusion in motif. While these added examples are of most interest, I remain inclined to a French origin for this saber of our discussion. The French were deeply interested and effected by Egyptian history and mythology and in their affection for neoclassic allegory seem likely to have used this lioness and serpent theme toward the motif on this with the Nile events in mind.

21st July 2021, 06:14 PM	#4
Richard R. Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 26	My initial conclusions based on my research into this sabre left me with a headache. At first glance, the mounting and decoration of this sabre spontaneously reminds me of 19th century Austro-Hungarian examples (see link). http://www.waffensammlung-beck.ch/waffe208.html Based on the scabbard shape, I would not have dated the scabbard earlier than the very late 18th century, but rather to the beginning of the 19th century. But on the other hand, this sabre has been dated before 1797. If this sabre is really to be dated before Napoleon's Egyptian campaign, no respective influence can have taken place.

21st July 2021, 07:23 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Richard, thank you for sharing your personal research already completed, which is most interesting aligned with our guesses and suggestions here. This rather expands the body of detail we are considering. The Austro-Hungarian example is interesting in having similar zoomorphic theme with MANED lion and twin serpents and dated about two decades later. It is often interesting to see how aesthetically similar styles and motif can diffuse widely in military fashion, of course a distinct characteristic of officers. Of course I remain with my holding to the French honor saber probably one off, post Egyptian campaigns (probably c. 1805).

21st July 2021, 08:57 PM	#6
Richard R. Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 26	Hello Jim. My research is still ongoing and has led to more questions than answers. For this reason, I am very grateful for your independent contributions. They give me interesting and helpful input for further considerations that I had not thought of.