Mystery sabre

Jim McDougall · 18th July 2021, 01:07 AM

Philip, thank you so much for the great insights on this interesting sword, and it looks like the instincts the guys have noted here on these regional characteristics are well placed. My idea was a bit of a long shot but I placed it anyway, and your explanation is as always, outstanding and thorough.,
The best thing in these discussions is learning!
Yvain thank you for posting this!

ausjulius · 20th July 2021, 08:10 AM

yeah its an odd one.. id say its very recent.
"folk souvenir" like man for musli.m customers by makers of trinkets.. such cheap islamic theemed bladed "items" egypt, north african states..india, uzbekistan, iran. palestine... syria.. ect in markets and in areas sellin islamic items. many such items have a "pan islamic" feel to them.. mixes of several things that dont regularly combine. . yatagan or pala blade.. or a generic khanjar dagger shape.. but from strip steel and unsharpened.. zulfikir blade on a hunting knife shaped brazed metal handle with faux jewellery adorning it. some green or red velvet lined case for it.. lots of acid etching.

. they are ushally made by makers of metal products.

the product is definatly not a uyghur product. and.. dosnt have any features associated with them.
although the uyghurs do makealot of islamic kitch souvenirs in the same style as the uzbeks and tajiks... brazed pitch filled metal handles. false gems.. tacky 3mm thick mirror finished kilij blades with lots of islamic etching.. uyghur swords are identical to uzbek weapons on any account.

i dont know about the cham currently.. .. in cambodia the items they make were now identical to cambodian ones.. there is an youtube channel with a blacksmith making all manner of things "amazing kk daily' is the name, filmed in a cham kampong in cambodia.. as many blacksmith are cham there.but the seem to make cambodian items. ..
in vietnam they are so oppressed i really dont know what they now make. but their 19th century arms are a malay, cambodian and vietnamese mixture.. metal handled kris and such.. dahb with large curved handles and big pommels ect.. it could very well be their creation.. although nothing on the knife gives me any clues to that.
i think we need a good cham thread to discuss their arms and to investigate if and are still made .

i still think its chinese Hui.. either made in china or burma. made as a religious souvinir.
infact now im almost positive it is.. i feel some place ive seen an exact sword of the type in china some place.. but its vague in my memory.

but the flaming ying yang is a dead give away on that sheath.. as hui are fond of all these type of things..... being chinese they mix these things in with islamic themes. .

Ren Ren · 21st July 2021, 11:32 AM

Has anyone noticed the ornament along the edge? It seemed familiar to me and I did my little research.
This ornamental motif is called Parang Rusak - "Broken Sword" and is originally present on batik textiles in Central and North-West Java.
According to legend, it was created by Sultan Agung, ruler of Mataram in 1613-1645. He was inspired by the picture of huge sea waves crashing against a high rocky coast. This ornament has become a symbol of wisdom, fortitude and courage of the ruler, as well as responsibility to the people, ancestors and God. At that time, clothes with motif Parang Rusak could only be worn by the Sultan himself and the closest members of his family, for the rest it was a "forbidden pattern". Now, of course, direct prohibitions no longer exist, but respect is still there.

asomotif · 21st July 2021, 03:24 PM

I do not see it. (the similarity) Apart from a S shape.

Saracen · 21st July 2021, 05:36 PM

I like the idea of RenRen. The motif of the incoming waves is visible. Just that the ornament on the fabric is distributed over the area , and on the blade in one line. But it looks very much like the main element is one and the same.

josh stout · 27th July 2021, 05:06 PM

It really looks similar to a Javanese approach to etching and decoration along the blade. Many small souvenir shops all over Java have been selling a variety of blade types with exactly this type of magical Arabic etching for a long time. The influences come from all over, and a crude Tao symbol, roughly cast with flames around it would not be out of place. These are souvenir swords, and are often fanciful designs made to look a little bit old. Overall, the saber looks like a "spiced up" pedang. The handle, guard, and blade are not that different from examples outside the realm of souvenirs.

I could be off, because I am trying to squeeze something I have not seen before into a category I with which I am familiar, but I would not be surprised to see something like this in a roadside antique stand.

Yvain · 30th July 2021, 06:13 PM

Sorry for not commenting earlier in the thread, very busy week.

Again, thanks to everyone for their help ! Philip, your Cham theory is extremely interesting and I'll see if I can find more information by following this lead; nevertheless, this is a very solid proposition considering the general guom style and the muslim etchnigs.

To answer your questioning, I don't think it was ever meant to be carried, it is really long, heavy, and unbalanced. In my opinion, it was made from the start for display (be it simply for decoration or with a religious intention).

Ausjulius, I will also give a shot at the Hui theory. In any case, you are most certainly correct that this was made rather cheaply for display, most likely as a religious souvenir (though way less practical than a medal from Lourdes !).

Regarding the javanese influence, and considering the mix of different styles on this piece, I wouldn't be surprised either that the blade was etched somewhere, then mounted in another place.

21st July 2021, 11:32 AM	#3
Ren Ren Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Russia, Moscow Posts: 379	Has anyone noticed the ornament along the edge? It seemed familiar to me and I did my little research. This ornamental motif is called Parang Rusak - "Broken Sword" and is originally present on batik textiles in Central and North-West Java. According to legend, it was created by Sultan Agung, ruler of Mataram in 1613-1645. He was inspired by the picture of huge sea waves crashing against a high rocky coast. This ornament has become a symbol of wisdom, fortitude and courage of the ruler, as well as responsibility to the people, ancestors and God. At that time, clothes with motif Parang Rusak could only be worn by the Sultan himself and the closest members of his family, for the rest it was a "forbidden pattern". Now, of course, direct prohibitions no longer exist, but respect is still there. Attached Images Last edited by Ren Ren; 21st July 2021 at 11:47 AM.

21st July 2021, 03:24 PM	#4
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,235	I do not see it. (the similarity) Apart from a S shape. Attached Images

18th July 2021, 01:07 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Philip, thank you so much for the great insights on this interesting sword, and it looks like the instincts the guys have noted here on these regional characteristics are well placed. My idea was a bit of a long shot but I placed it anyway, and your explanation is as always, outstanding and thorough., The best thing in these discussions is learning! Yvain thank you for posting this!

20th July 2021, 08:10 AM	#2
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 444	yeah its an odd one.. id say its very recent. "folk souvenir" like man for musli.m customers by makers of trinkets.. such cheap islamic theemed bladed "items" egypt, north african states..india, uzbekistan, iran. palestine... syria.. ect in markets and in areas sellin islamic items. many such items have a "pan islamic" feel to them.. mixes of several things that dont regularly combine. . yatagan or pala blade.. or a generic khanjar dagger shape.. but from strip steel and unsharpened.. zulfikir blade on a hunting knife shaped brazed metal handle with faux jewellery adorning it. some green or red velvet lined case for it.. lots of acid etching. . they are ushally made by makers of metal products. the product is definatly not a uyghur product. and.. dosnt have any features associated with them. although the uyghurs do makealot of islamic kitch souvenirs in the same style as the uzbeks and tajiks... brazed pitch filled metal handles. false gems.. tacky 3mm thick mirror finished kilij blades with lots of islamic etching.. uyghur swords are identical to uzbek weapons on any account. i dont know about the cham currently.. .. in cambodia the items they make were now identical to cambodian ones.. there is an youtube channel with a blacksmith making all manner of things "amazing kk daily' is the name, filmed in a cham kampong in cambodia.. as many blacksmith are cham there.but the seem to make cambodian items. .. in vietnam they are so oppressed i really dont know what they now make. but their 19th century arms are a malay, cambodian and vietnamese mixture.. metal handled kris and such.. dahb with large curved handles and big pommels ect.. it could very well be their creation.. although nothing on the knife gives me any clues to that. i think we need a good cham thread to discuss their arms and to investigate if and are still made . i still think its chinese Hui.. either made in china or burma. made as a religious souvinir. infact now im almost positive it is.. i feel some place ive seen an exact sword of the type in china some place.. but its vague in my memory. but the flaming ying yang is a dead give away on that sheath.. as hui are fond of all these type of things..... being chinese they mix these things in with islamic themes. .

21st July 2021, 05:36 PM	#5
Saracen Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 147	I like the idea of RenRen. The motif of the incoming waves is visible. Just that the ornament on the fabric is distributed over the area , and on the blade in one line. But it looks very much like the main element is one and the same.

27th July 2021, 05:06 PM	#6
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	It really looks similar to a Javanese approach to etching and decoration along the blade. Many small souvenir shops all over Java have been selling a variety of blade types with exactly this type of magical Arabic etching for a long time. The influences come from all over, and a crude Tao symbol, roughly cast with flames around it would not be out of place. These are souvenir swords, and are often fanciful designs made to look a little bit old. Overall, the saber looks like a "spiced up" pedang. The handle, guard, and blade are not that different from examples outside the realm of souvenirs. I could be off, because I am trying to squeeze something I have not seen before into a category I with which I am familiar, but I would not be surprised to see something like this in a roadside antique stand.

30th July 2021, 06:13 PM	#7
Yvain Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: France Posts: 179	Sorry for not commenting earlier in the thread, very busy week. Again, thanks to everyone for their help ! Philip, your Cham theory is extremely interesting and I'll see if I can find more information by following this lead; nevertheless, this is a very solid proposition considering the general guom style and the muslim etchnigs. To answer your questioning, I don't think it was ever meant to be carried, it is really long, heavy, and unbalanced. In my opinion, it was made from the start for display (be it simply for decoration or with a religious intention). Ausjulius, I will also give a shot at the Hui theory. In any case, you are most certainly correct that this was made rather cheaply for display, most likely as a religious souvenir (though way less practical than a medal from Lourdes !). Regarding the javanese influence, and considering the mix of different styles on this piece, I wouldn't be surprised either that the blade was etched somewhere, then mounted in another place.