Pattern Welding Kampilan and Kris

David · 8th July 2021, 11:25 PM

Nice blades. But my question would be is this "pattern welding" or are these "laminated" blades? I realize the techniques are related, but my understanding is that pattern welding is a technique which grew out of the process of "laminated" or "piled steel" forging. This aspect of blade collection is not my expertise, so please feel free to correct me if i have this wrong. It could be just me falling for the naming of the things and expecting to see a more defined pattern in pattern welding.

This is what i would more expect to see in a pattern welded Moro blade as seen in this barung.

Battara · 9th July 2021, 12:56 AM

The kris is Maguindanao in origin and is missing the top silver band underneath the pommel.

I also think the kampilan could also be Maguindanao based on the okir oon topn the pommel. It is obviously missing the hair on top and this indicates a possible ceremonial piece. Also the holes at the end of the kampilan blade may have been filled with brass or even silver, being talismanic.

Indio_Ira · 9th July 2021, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

The kris is Maguindanao in origin and is missing the top silver band underneath the pommel.

I also think the kampilan could also be Maguindanao based on the okir oon topn the pommel. It is obviously missing the hair on top and this indicates a possible ceremonial piece. Also the holes at the end of the kampilan blade may have been filled with brass or even silver, being talismanic.

Thank you for your insight on my blades.

Is it always the case when the hair is missing that it is a ceremonial piece?

Indio_Ira · 9th July 2021, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Nice blades. But my question would be is this "pattern welding" or are these "laminated" blades? I realize the techniques are related, but my understanding is that pattern welding is a technique which grew out of the process of "laminated" or "piled steel" forging. This aspect of blade collection is not my expertise, so please feel free to correct me if i have this wrong. It could be just me falling for the naming of the things and expecting to see a more defined pattern in pattern welding.

This is what i would more expect to see in a pattern welded Moro blade as seen in this barung.

It could be that you are right? I wasn't aware that there's a difference...I'm pretty new in collecting Moro blades so my knowledge is very novice.

David · 9th July 2021, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indio_Ira

It could be that you are right? I wasn't aware that there's a difference...I'm pretty new in collecting Moro blades so my knowledge is very novice.

Well, i'm not sure i am correct either. LOL!
But i think it might be a case where all pattern welded blades are laminated blades, but not all laminated blades are pattern welded.

ariel · 9th July 2021, 09:36 PM

Just a query: would it be correct to assume that the kris blade is laminated thru and thru and the dark edges are the result of differential tempering?

kai · 10th July 2021, 12:29 AM

Hello Ariel,

Quote:

Just a query: would it be correct to assume that the kris blade is laminated thru and thru and the dark edges are the result of differential tempering?

No, most kris blades are of sandwich construction with a central layer of hardened steel (dark after staining) and laminated mild steel as outer layers (lighter areas).

Regards,
Kai

JBG163 · 10th July 2021, 12:17 PM

Pattern welded : use of two different steel with different characteristics to produce a contrast (like keris)

Laminated/forge folded : use of bloomed steel, forge folded several times to purify it. The position of the bloom, in the furnace, will not be homogeneous in terms of carbon content. Which will produce different coloration during etching. Also, several layer can be seen (like Japanese sword). Not that if you use two different forge folded steel ingot with different amount of carbon and different composition, you can make a pattern welded blade.

Wootz steel : crucible steel, made in a graphite crucible. It’s the composition + heating/cooling process which will give it the characteristics.

Battara · 10th July 2021, 10:22 PM

Ariel - usually the edges that are dark are due to tempering.

Indio_Ira - It seems so far that kampilans with hair are ceremonial.

kai · 11th July 2021, 01:57 PM

Hello Julien,

Quote:

Pattern welded : use of two different steel with different characteristics to produce a contrast (like keris)

D'accord.

Pattern welding is probably more defined by the intention of the blade smith rather than actual contrast achieved though: In many cultures a more subdued contrast was appreciated compared to the bold pamor often seen with keris Jawa/Bali. Also the method to visualize the contrast varies widely (high polish in Japan vs topographic etch, warangan stain vs patina from use, etc.).

Quote:

Laminated/forge folded : use of bloomed steel, forge folded several times to purify it. The position of the bloom, in the furnace, will not be homogeneous in terms of carbon content. Which will produce different coloration during etching. Also, several layer can be seen (like Japanese sword).

Quite often the contrast is also due to phosphate, nickel, or other differences between alloys. (While bloomery steel is historically most relevant, also other sources/alloys can be welded to produce laminated steel.)

Regards,
Kai

kai · 10th July 2021, 12:25 AM

Quote:

all pattern welded blades are laminated blades, but not all laminated blades are pattern welded.

Well, there are also pattern welded wootz blades (which are technically not laminated...) - however, more often than not, the terminology often gets pretty loosely applied, anyway.

In Indonesia, there also is the concept of planned and unplanned pamor: Complex, controlled pattern welding would usually be referred to as planned while more basic, "random" laminations are usually considered as unplanned. IMHO this is also somewhat off since for tight "unplanned" laminations you also need to have a clear intention, know how to achieve that and what you're doing, as well as having extensive control during your working processes. Moreover, there also seems to be a tendency to refer to some pamor motifs as unplanned since their "spontaneous" appearance is believed to enhance their mystic power. In many cases, I'm more inclined to believe that the blade smith did lend more than a mere helping hand...

Regards,
Kai

8th July 2021, 11:25 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Nice blades. But my question would be is this "pattern welding" or are these "laminated" blades? I realize the techniques are related, but my understanding is that pattern welding is a technique which grew out of the process of "laminated" or "piled steel" forging. This aspect of blade collection is not my expertise, so please feel free to correct me if i have this wrong. It could be just me falling for the naming of the things and expecting to see a more defined pattern in pattern welding. This is what i would more expect to see in a pattern welded Moro blade as seen in this barung. Attached Images

9th July 2021, 12:56 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,342	The kris is Maguindanao in origin and is missing the top silver band underneath the pommel. I also think the kampilan could also be Maguindanao based on the okir oon topn the pommel. It is obviously missing the hair on top and this indicates a possible ceremonial piece. Also the holes at the end of the kampilan blade may have been filled with brass or even silver, being talismanic.

9th July 2021, 09:36 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just a query: would it be correct to assume that the kris blade is laminated thru and thru and the dark edges are the result of differential tempering?

10th July 2021, 12:17 PM	#8
JBG163 Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: France Posts: 209	Pattern welded : use of two different steel with different characteristics to produce a contrast (like keris) Laminated/forge folded : use of bloomed steel, forge folded several times to purify it. The position of the bloom, in the furnace, will not be homogeneous in terms of carbon content. Which will produce different coloration during etching. Also, several layer can be seen (like Japanese sword). Not that if you use two different forge folded steel ingot with different amount of carbon and different composition, you can make a pattern welded blade. Wootz steel : crucible steel, made in a graphite crucible. It’s the composition + heating/cooling process which will give it the characteristics.

10th July 2021, 10:22 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,342	Ariel - usually the edges that are dark are due to tempering. Indio_Ira - It seems so far that kampilans with hair are ceremonial.