an Afghan pulwar sword -translation if possible...

Kubur · 12th June 2021, 07:16 AM

I agree with Ariel the scabbard is late 19th c.
The blade could be Indian (it's what collectors say...)
The only forum member who could answer with precision to your question is Mahratt.
Here is the pulwar that I mentionned: you should post your sword the same manner to compare the blades.

francantolin · 12th June 2021, 09:19 AM

Hello,
Thank you for the comments,
It needed more informations about the sword:

an heavy sword weight 1080 grams
length 98cm, 103cm with scabbard

The blade fits good entirely in the scabbard ,
just the end of the the scabbard was really bad preserved as I wrote ( humidity...) I think there was a metal chape before...

the blade maybe was polished later when they did the engravings for the afghan sentence ?

I think end of 19th century for this sword is right,
the indian blade, don't really know ...
Thank you Jim about the Indian Urdu cartouche

About the hilt, maybe not too old but it is really finely crafted and of higher quality than average pulwar hilts I think,
I saw a few sword with all these delicate holes/perforations, One similar sold by Czern'ys, another from Mandarin Mansion, ( thank you for the pictures !)

( Inside there are too 'small 'stones'' inside who makes rattle sound,
I read it could be Mecca stones...)

I am the overcleaner

and remove rust from everypart ( too under the langets

),
some might say I wouldn't to and perhaps it has less value like that,
but I couldn't leave it like that: cf pictures ...
we can see that the blade was already in better conditions than the rest of the sword before my ''wash'' ,
that's what surprise me first too the blade was maybe polished later
( when they did the engravings for the afghan sentence ? If it's afghan... )

francantolin · 12th June 2021, 09:21 AM

the last...

Kind regards

Jim McDougall · 12th June 2021, 05:04 PM

As Ariel has noted, the 'industry' of creating representations of traditional weapons is well known in Afghanistan, particularly in Khyber and Northwest province regions, and has been since mid 19th c.

I had not noticed the 'drag' on the chape, a distinctly western affectation reflecting the move to western influences post 2nd Afghan War (1879-80).
By this time Afghanistan had become controlled by Great Britain much as in the Indian Raj, and the military was augmented by native units as well as the use of British uniform elements and weaponry.

The Khyber knife was vestigially replaced by European style hilted short sabers, though these hilts were also placed on the heirloom blades of the Khyber knives in many cases.

The inscription on this blade is likely in either Dari Persian or in Naskh if in Pashto. Unfortunately I cannot translate.

The 'mecca stones' are an unusual affectation in these (I think Ashoka had one) and these are known in pommels of late 19th c Sudanese swords, so possibly a Sufi feature?

On a personal note, my preference is to avoid overcleaning swords, primarily because I am a historian, and removing patination is to essentially remove history itself in a sense. Naturally it is important to stabilize a weapon from any active corrosion or rust, and add any minor repair to maintain the integrity of the weapon. However over cleaning and alteration typically remove the elements of the 'adventures' the weapon has gone through over time and its working life. Just my thoughts

each collector has own preferences.

ariel · 12th June 2021, 05:11 PM

If the contrast between physical conditions of the scabbard vs. blade is explained by your overeager cleaning ( note: this is my personal opinion, I prefer to keep mine with “ kisses of time”, but others might agree with you), the only issue remaining is the age of the filler: was the sword disassembled and/ or the handle is a replacement. Based on your recent pics with heavily patinated handle, I tend to think that the handle is original.
If all is fine, the issue of age will be closed: not earlier than the end of 19 century, and then all the way up to the first third of the 20 century. This one does not look like a regulation weapon ( no government marks), and a private purchase is very likely. That could have happened any time withint the above time frame.

ariel · 12th June 2021, 05:19 PM

Jim,
We crossed the posts:-) Glad we agree.

francantolin · 12th June 2021, 08:05 PM

Hello,
Thank's a lot gentlemen
for your useful ( and corroborating

) advice !

Sure remove rust removes a part of history
but It can make appear buried signs/clues ( but I'm ok, this time it's overcleaned...)

For the translation, glad if one day something can come out !

Kind regards and one more time thank's a lot !!

12th June 2021, 07:16 AM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I agree with Ariel the scabbard is late 19th c. The blade could be Indian (it's what collectors say...) The only forum member who could answer with precision to your question is Mahratt. Here is the pulwar that I mentionned: you should post your sword the same manner to compare the blades. Attached Images

12th June 2021, 09:19 AM	#2
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Hello, Thank you for the comments, It needed more informations about the sword: an heavy sword weight 1080 grams length 98cm, 103cm with scabbard The blade fits good entirely in the scabbard , just the end of the the scabbard was really bad preserved as I wrote ( humidity...) I think there was a metal chape before... the blade maybe was polished later when they did the engravings for the afghan sentence ? I think end of 19th century for this sword is right, the indian blade, don't really know ... Thank you Jim about the Indian Urdu cartouche About the hilt, maybe not too old but it is really finely crafted and of higher quality than average pulwar hilts I think, I saw a few sword with all these delicate holes/perforations, One similar sold by Czern'ys, another from Mandarin Mansion, ( thank you for the pictures !) ( Inside there are too 'small 'stones'' inside who makes rattle sound, I read it could be Mecca stones...) I am the overcleaner and remove rust from everypart ( too under the langets ), some might say I wouldn't to and perhaps it has less value like that, but I couldn't leave it like that: cf pictures ... we can see that the blade was already in better conditions than the rest of the sword before my ''wash'' , that's what surprise me first too the blade was maybe polished later ( when they did the engravings for the afghan sentence ? If it's afghan... ) Attached Images

12th June 2021, 09:21 AM	#3
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	the last... Kind regards Attached Images

12th June 2021, 05:04 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	As Ariel has noted, the 'industry' of creating representations of traditional weapons is well known in Afghanistan, particularly in Khyber and Northwest province regions, and has been since mid 19th c. I had not noticed the 'drag' on the chape, a distinctly western affectation reflecting the move to western influences post 2nd Afghan War (1879-80). By this time Afghanistan had become controlled by Great Britain much as in the Indian Raj, and the military was augmented by native units as well as the use of British uniform elements and weaponry. The Khyber knife was vestigially replaced by European style hilted short sabers, though these hilts were also placed on the heirloom blades of the Khyber knives in many cases. The inscription on this blade is likely in either Dari Persian or in Naskh if in Pashto. Unfortunately I cannot translate. The 'mecca stones' are an unusual affectation in these (I think Ashoka had one) and these are known in pommels of late 19th c Sudanese swords, so possibly a Sufi feature? On a personal note, my preference is to avoid overcleaning swords, primarily because I am a historian, and removing patination is to essentially remove history itself in a sense. Naturally it is important to stabilize a weapon from any active corrosion or rust, and add any minor repair to maintain the integrity of the weapon. However over cleaning and alteration typically remove the elements of the 'adventures' the weapon has gone through over time and its working life. Just my thoughts each collector has own preferences.

12th June 2021, 05:11 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	If the contrast between physical conditions of the scabbard vs. blade is explained by your overeager cleaning ( note: this is my personal opinion, I prefer to keep mine with “ kisses of time”, but others might agree with you), the only issue remaining is the age of the filler: was the sword disassembled and/ or the handle is a replacement. Based on your recent pics with heavily patinated handle, I tend to think that the handle is original. If all is fine, the issue of age will be closed: not earlier than the end of 19 century, and then all the way up to the first third of the 20 century. This one does not look like a regulation weapon ( no government marks), and a private purchase is very likely. That could have happened any time withint the above time frame.

12th June 2021, 05:19 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jim, We crossed the posts:-) Glad we agree.

12th June 2021, 08:05 PM	#7
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 905	Hello, Thank's a lot gentlemen for your useful ( and corroborating ) advice ! Sure remove rust removes a part of history but It can make appear buried signs/clues ( but I'm ok, this time it's overcleaned...) For the translation, glad if one day something can come out ! Kind regards and one more time thank's a lot !!