Origin & Age

Shieh · 28th May 2021, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Things might not be as simple as most of us seem to think Jaga. I've been working on something for a while now that when I publish will probably upset a lot of people. I suggest that it might not be a good idea to try to tie Amuk down to pakems & etc too tightly, all this pakem stuff came along much later.

I do not know enough about the pakem 'system(s)' and yet what little I have gathered about it so far has had me confounded. Either I have to read up (much) more or I have to 'unlearn' everything and start over again.

So, I'm looking forward to what you are going to publish.

A. G. Maisey · 28th May 2021, 10:18 PM

Eric, a "pakem" is simply a guide book. We can have pakems for cooking, for cage birds, for keeping our financial affairs in order, for many things, and for the classification of a keris blade.

We classify keris blades jn accordance with the guidelines that have been accepted by some entity or other, and although these guidelines can vary from entity to entity, they are all broadly in agreement.

Using these guidelines we can then provide a personal opinion on what the classification of a keris blade might be. It is not certain, it is not inarguable, it is not carved in stone. It is just one person's opinion of the name that we can use to express our opinion. This is "Tangguh".

However, the actual meaning of the opinion we form might be somewhat different to that which many people believe it means.

Don't hold your breath for publication of what I am currently working on. From the first seed planted in my understanding of pre-Islamic Javanese keris, until my publication on this subject it took more than 30 years for the tree to grow --- and it is still growing. What I am now working on has very little to do with blade classification, it concerns development.

Jean · 29th May 2021, 08:54 AM

Just a short comment about the origin of these blades: they were imported to Europe from Banten (or Blambangan according to Jensen) but is it certain that they were manufactured there?
There is a well-known drawing of the Banten port dating from the 17th century showing a kris-making workshop but is it a sufficient source of information?
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 29th May 2021, 09:56 AM

Banten is at one end of the Island of Jawa, Blambangan at the other. I have nominated Banten for two reasons, firstly it was the most likely place for such items keris to have been collected at that early point, secondly, the overall characteristics of the blade match other keris that some people classify as Banten. If Jensen wants it to be Blambangan I would never argue against this, Blambangan is right on the doorstep of Mojo, this keris displays some accepted Mojo characteristics.

However, no geographic location can be accurately affixed in the absence of personal observation of manufacture, so we are talking opinion, and just as I will not argue against Jenson's opinion, neither will I argue against any other opinion that places in somewhere in Jawa.

Perhaps the most sensible classification might be to give it an alpha numeric classification, say JN3, if we were to go this route we could chuck our precious tangguh system right out the door:- JN3, JN5, CJ23, CB6 --- the possibilities are endless.

Amuk Murugul · 29th May 2021, 09:50 PM

Hullo everybody!

Perhaps one can invite the good offices of our Portuguese friends, or anyone who has access to Portuguese sources, to investigate whether such items were gifted to:

- the Crown, circa 1512, 1521 & 1522

- Ruy de Brito Patalim, circa 1512

- Jorge de Albuquerque circa 1521 & 1522

- Enrique Leme circa 1522

That is all I can say on the matter.
I await developments.

Best,

Jean · 30th May 2021, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Just a short comment about the origin of these blades: they were imported to Europe from Banten (or Blambangan according to Jensen) but is it certain that they were manufactured there?
There is a well-known drawing of the Banten port dating from the 17th century showing a kris-making workshop but is it a sufficient source of information?
Regards

Sorry, I should have said Banten and Blambangan, Jensen distinguishes the 2 supposed locations of origin, the blades of these krisses are very similar but the hilts look a bit different.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 30th May 2021, 01:49 PM

Jean, I should have made clear that anything I have commented upon in respect of this keris is related only to the keris, from the Javanese point of view it is only the blade that is the keris, only the blade that is the Gunungan, only the blade that is the representation of Mount Meru, which is of course Mount Kailas, only the blade that incorporates the icons of Siwa and only the blade that provides a link to the ancestors.

All these other things that collectors consider as a part of the keris are not sacred, the hilt is a guardian, as is the wrongko. From the traditional Javanese
perspective these other things are similar to a suit of clothes, they might indicate where a complete keris, the dhuwung, was worn or used, but they do not indicate the origin of the keris itself.

This encapsulates the difference in the way I consider the nature of the keris and the way people like Mr. Jensen thought about the keris:- others like Mr. Jensen consider everything they see as giving some indication of its origin, I consider only the keris itself, that is to say, the blade.

Please accept my apologies if my failure to express myself clearly has caused any confusion. With this keris I have paid not the smallest degree of attention to the hilt, for me, the hilt is irrelevant.

29th May 2021, 09:50 PM	#5
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	Hullo everybody! Perhaps one can invite the good offices of our Portuguese friends, or anyone who has access to Portuguese sources, to investigate whether such items were gifted to: - the Crown, circa 1512, 1521 & 1522 - Ruy de Brito Patalim, circa 1512 - Jorge de Albuquerque circa 1521 & 1522 - Enrique Leme circa 1522 That is all I can say on the matter. I await developments. Best, Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 29th May 2021 at 10:29 PM. Reason: punctuation

28th May 2021, 10:18 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Eric, a "pakem" is simply a guide book. We can have pakems for cooking, for cage birds, for keeping our financial affairs in order, for many things, and for the classification of a keris blade. We classify keris blades jn accordance with the guidelines that have been accepted by some entity or other, and although these guidelines can vary from entity to entity, they are all broadly in agreement. Using these guidelines we can then provide a personal opinion on what the classification of a keris blade might be. It is not certain, it is not inarguable, it is not carved in stone. It is just one person's opinion of the name that we can use to express our opinion. This is "Tangguh". However, the actual meaning of the opinion we form might be somewhat different to that which many people believe it means. Don't hold your breath for publication of what I am currently working on. From the first seed planted in my understanding of pre-Islamic Javanese keris, until my publication on this subject it took more than 30 years for the tree to grow --- and it is still growing. What I am now working on has very little to do with blade classification, it concerns development.

29th May 2021, 08:54 AM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Just a short comment about the origin of these blades: they were imported to Europe from Banten (or Blambangan according to Jensen) but is it certain that they were manufactured there? There is a well-known drawing of the Banten port dating from the 17th century showing a kris-making workshop but is it a sufficient source of information? Regards

29th May 2021, 09:56 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Banten is at one end of the Island of Jawa, Blambangan at the other. I have nominated Banten for two reasons, firstly it was the most likely place for such items keris to have been collected at that early point, secondly, the overall characteristics of the blade match other keris that some people classify as Banten. If Jensen wants it to be Blambangan I would never argue against this, Blambangan is right on the doorstep of Mojo, this keris displays some accepted Mojo characteristics. However, no geographic location can be accurately affixed in the absence of personal observation of manufacture, so we are talking opinion, and just as I will not argue against Jenson's opinion, neither will I argue against any other opinion that places in somewhere in Jawa. Perhaps the most sensible classification might be to give it an alpha numeric classification, say JN3, if we were to go this route we could chuck our precious tangguh system right out the door:- JN3, JN5, CJ23, CB6 --- the possibilities are endless.

30th May 2021, 01:49 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Jean, I should have made clear that anything I have commented upon in respect of this keris is related only to the keris, from the Javanese point of view it is only the blade that is the keris, only the blade that is the Gunungan, only the blade that is the representation of Mount Meru, which is of course Mount Kailas, only the blade that incorporates the icons of Siwa and only the blade that provides a link to the ancestors. All these other things that collectors consider as a part of the keris are not sacred, the hilt is a guardian, as is the wrongko. From the traditional Javanese perspective these other things are similar to a suit of clothes, they might indicate where a complete keris, the dhuwung, was worn or used, but they do not indicate the origin of the keris itself. This encapsulates the difference in the way I consider the nature of the keris and the way people like Mr. Jensen thought about the keris:- others like Mr. Jensen consider everything they see as giving some indication of its origin, I consider only the keris itself, that is to say, the blade. Please accept my apologies if my failure to express myself clearly has caused any confusion. With this keris I have paid not the smallest degree of attention to the hilt, for me, the hilt is irrelevant.