A 19th century American boarding pike

M ELEY · 27th May 2021, 06:10 AM

Agreed that 'poop' had nothing to do with the deck's name. As I noted, the head, which was located at the very front of the bough, was the latrine. Still, very strange nautical names. Where did such words as 'orlop' or 'missen' come from?

fernando · 27th May 2021, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... As I noted, the head, which was located at the very front of the bough, was the latrine...

A favourable zone in sailing ships, as the wind was almost always coming from either behind or to one side of the ship, so that everything was carried away.

Pyrard de Laval, a French navigator (1578-1623), gives a good account of the distinction between habits of crews and rules aboard from the different countries, taking Portuguese for comparison; even the differences between ships of the same nationality depending on their routes, big (huge) vessels to India being the major class.

As for lexicon, i was browsing on Nautical terms and found a 'Nautic and Military Diet', an unprecedented manuscript of the 18th. century, regulating life aboard.
This document, comprising nautic rules, terms and phrases, has no less than 590 pages.

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Rick · 27th May 2021, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Agreed that 'poop' had nothing to do with the deck's name. As I noted, the head, which was located at the very front of the bough, was the latrine. Still, very strange nautical names. Where did such words as 'orlop' or 'missen' come from?

What is the origin of the word orlop?
Origin of orlop. 1375–1425; late Middle English overloppe < Middle Dutch over-loop covering, literally, an over-leap, equivalent to over- over- + -loopen to run, extend; see leap. Also called orlop deck.

This one's a bit unclear:
mizzen (n.)
"aftermost fore-and-aft sail of a three-masted ship," early 15c., mesan, via French misaine "foresail, foremast," altered (by influence of Italian mezzana "mizzen") from Old French migenne, from Catalan mitjana, from Latin medianus "of the middle" (from PIE root *medhyo- "middle").

The sense of the English and Italian words agree, but the etymology is off because the "middle" mast on a ship is the mainmast. Perhaps it refers to a sail of "middle" size, or the thing described changed. Klein suggests an alternate etymology of the French word, from Arabic via Italian. The mizzen-mast (late 15c.) supports the mizzen-sail.

fernando · 28th May 2021, 11:53 AM

The orlop is the lowest deck on a ship (except for very old ships). It is the deck or part of a deck where cables are housed, usually below the waterline. It has been suggested that the name originates from "overlooping" of the cables, or alternatively, that the name is a corruption of "overlap", referring to an overlapping half deck, similar to a balcony, occupying a part of the space of the lower deck from the ship. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word descends from the Dutch overloop of the verb overlopen, "to run (over); extend".
Down under, the Orlop deck of the Vasa, a 1728 Swedish ship of the line, in red.

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Rick · 28th May 2021, 11:01 PM

Essentially maybe Nando, but you went on to describe it I just searched for the
word origin. Yes, the first deck over the ballast which actually ties into our subject of the 'heads'.
This was where a sailor who found it too dangerous to risk being swept off the heads by a sea often retired to in severe weather and the effluence wound up in the bilge.
Imagine a three decker with a few hundred seaman.

fernando · 29th May 2021, 03:50 PM

As said, these things ougth to be considered within due timeline, different cultures ... and context. During the XVI century the greed for spices (pepper) induced for the building of ships of exponential dimensions. From the average 400 tonnes carracks to the incredible "Madre de Deus", displacing 1,600 tonnes (900 of which in cargo). Built in 1589, for the India route, it was 166 feet long and 48 feet wide. It had 7 decks and 32 cannons, among other weapons, employing a crew of 600 to 700 men *.
If we add a vast number of soldiers and passengers that traveled aboard to India (and back), all these decks were packed with people, hygiene was definitely not their middle name;
" because most people do not take the trouble to go above and beyond to satisfy their needs " (Pyrard de Laval 1610).
Not that big shots had lack of poop facilities for themselves; Vasco da Gama, already in 1498 in his trip to India, is known to have taken them on board; he has offered the King of Melinde (Kenia) three (chamber) pots.

*
She was captured when returning from her second trip to India by an English fleet of six ships off the Azores. The Madre de Deus was one of the greatest lootings in history.
Down under her (accurate ?) model kept in the Navy Museum.

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M ELEY · 30th May 2021, 03:22 AM

Thank you folks for explaining the odd terminologies in maritime use. I just think it's strange that 'orlop' originated from Dutch, yet it was used pretty much across the board for all ships at the time. Rick, I need to buy that nautical dictionary of yours for further reading! Now...why do some say 'starboard' and others 'larboard' but they mean the same thing!?

fernando · 30th May 2021, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... Now...why do some say 'starboard' and others 'larboard' but they mean the same thing!?

It's all there Captain ... and sounds reliable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_and_starboard

David R · 1st June 2021, 08:49 PM

[QUOTE=M ELEY;263093! Now...why do some say 'starboard' and others 'larboard' but they mean the same thing!?[/QUOTE]

They don't, starboard went back to the days of a steering oar on one side, and larboard was the other side. Eventually to avoid confusion the terms Port and Starboard ware adopted.
Why an international (for the most part) vocabulary, because the crews were (For the most part)!

28th May 2021, 11:53 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Am i repeating Rick ? The orlop is the lowest deck on a ship (except for very old ships). It is the deck or part of a deck where cables are housed, usually below the waterline. It has been suggested that the name originates from "overlooping" of the cables, or alternatively, that the name is a corruption of "overlap", referring to an overlapping half deck, similar to a balcony, occupying a part of the space of the lower deck from the ship. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word descends from the Dutch overloop of the verb overlopen, "to run (over); extend". Down under, the Orlop deck of the Vasa, a 1728 Swedish ship of the line, in red. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 28th May 2021 at 12:04 PM.

28th May 2021, 11:01 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Essentially maybe Nando, but you went on to describe it I just searched for the word origin. Yes, the first deck over the ballast which actually ties into our subject of the 'heads'. This was where a sailor who found it too dangerous to risk being swept off the heads by a sea often retired to in severe weather and the effluence wound up in the bilge. Imagine a three decker with a few hundred seaman. Last edited by Rick; 28th May 2021 at 11:18 PM.

29th May 2021, 03:50 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	As said, these things ougth to be considered within due timeline, different cultures ... and context. During the XVI century the greed for spices (pepper) induced for the building of ships of exponential dimensions. From the average 400 tonnes carracks to the incredible "Madre de Deus", displacing 1,600 tonnes (900 of which in cargo). Built in 1589, for the India route, it was 166 feet long and 48 feet wide. It had 7 decks and 32 cannons, among other weapons, employing a crew of 600 to 700 men . If we add a vast number of soldiers and passengers that traveled aboard to India (and back), all these decks were packed with people, hygiene was definitely not their middle name; " because most people do not take the trouble to go above and beyond to satisfy their needs* " (Pyrard de Laval 1610). Not that big shots had lack of poop facilities for themselves; Vasco da Gama, already in 1498 in his trip to India, is known to have taken them on board; he has offered the King of Melinde (Kenia) three (chamber) pots. * She was captured when returning from her second trip to India by an English fleet of six ships off the Azores. The Madre de Deus was one of the greatest lootings in history. Down under her (accurate ?) model kept in the Navy Museum. . Attached Images

27th May 2021, 06:10 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,165	Agreed that 'poop' had nothing to do with the deck's name. As I noted, the head, which was located at the very front of the bough, was the latrine. Still, very strange nautical names. Where did such words as 'orlop' or 'missen' come from?

30th May 2021, 03:22 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,165	Thank you folks for explaining the odd terminologies in maritime use. I just think it's strange that 'orlop' originated from Dutch, yet it was used pretty much across the board for all ships at the time. Rick, I need to buy that nautical dictionary of yours for further reading! Now...why do some say 'starboard' and others 'larboard' but they mean the same thing!?

1st June 2021, 08:49 PM	#9
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,120	[QUOTE=M ELEY;263093! Now...why do some say 'starboard' and others 'larboard' but they mean the same thing!?[/QUOTE] They don't, starboard went back to the days of a steering oar on one side, and larboard was the other side. Eventually to avoid confusion the terms Port and Starboard ware adopted. Why an international (for the most part) vocabulary, because the crews were (For the most part)!