interesting Persian item

Oliver Pinchot · 4th May 2021, 05:31 AM

I'm with Ariel. It is certainly a flint striker.

Gustav · 4th May 2021, 11:48 AM

Just information regarding the item in #11.
That's actually a typical Javanese reins holder.

ariel · 7th May 2021, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Just information regarding the item in #11.
That's actually a typical Javanese reins holder.

Many things came to Indonesia from India and other counrties: Piso Podang pommel, Gulabhati handle, Borobudur, and, yes, even Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam.
It is certainly possible that these hooks might have been used as rein holders in Indonesia: they will work.
But as a rule, reins were held in place simply by putting them over the saddle pommel. This may be one of the reasons why Islamic saddles had tall pommels.
Here are Central Asian, Turkish and Afghani saddles.

But going back to the original thingamajig, it simply could not work as a sword or reins holder: engineering would not allow for it.

ariel · 7th May 2021, 04:11 PM

And here is a Ukrainian ( Turkish style) one.

Interested Party · 7th May 2021, 07:02 PM

My immediate impression when I saw the picture was a striker. After reading this thread I still think so, but with less conviction after seeing other possible uses. Could we see the aspect that is facing away in post #8? That would be the area of contact IMHO. I like that it would seem to direct the flint away from the knuckles.

Gustav · 8th May 2021, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Many things came to Indonesia from India and other counrties: Piso Podang pommel, Gulabhati handle, Borobudur, and, yes, even Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam.
It is certainly possible that these hooks might have been used as rein holders in Indonesia: they will work.
But as a rule, reins were held in place simply by putting them over the saddle pommel. This may be one of the reasons why Islamic saddles had tall pommels.
Here are Central Asian, Turkish and Afghani saddles.

But going back to the original thingamajig, it simply could not work as a sword or reins holder: engineering would not allow for it.

Ariel, no doubts about that all.
Just - the particular item shown in #11 has nothing to do with Cossacks, India, and the region between them. It comes from specific region and had specific purpose, which has nothing to do with the purpose you described to it.

ariel · 9th May 2021, 06:35 PM

You are correct: Alan’s example has nothing to do with Cossacks, India etc.
However, engineeringly it is a carbon copy of an item in post #22, that belonged to Zaporozhian ( Ukrainian) cossacks that they in turn copied from Turkish examples.
The Indonesians just did not need a belt hook hanger: they carried their weapons either tucked under the belt or hung on a baldrick over the shoulder. I am unaware of Javanese weapons with suspension fittings and rings on the scabbards.

Most likely they just took an item from some foreigners and used it for their own purpose.

A. G. Maisey · 9th May 2021, 11:34 PM

Not quite so Ariel.

There is a dress style that employs a cloth frog to hold the scabbard of a keris, it it usually worn at the front, mostly employed by Central Javanese courtiers.

I can think of no instances where a keris, or other weapon, was carried with a baldrick. Balinese nobles when they wore their sarung high, up pretty much to the armpits, would carry the keris tucked into the top of the sarung, which when worn high is not worn with a setagen (sash) nor sabuk(belt).

Some pedangs do have suspension rings on the scabbards, many have hooks on the scabbard that were used both as a belt hook, and as a hook to retain a frog.

The reins hook (bankol), might well have originated from a Turkish item, historically there was a strong connection between the court of Central Jawa and Turkey, however, the ones I've shown are most certainly Javanese in style and seemingly effective in the way that are employed. Back in the 1980's I saw a demonstration of Javanese horsemanship where the rider used a bankol, and it worked very well.

ariel · 9th May 2021, 11:51 PM

Alan,
Thanks for the information. Have you also seen bankols used as sword hanging hooks as well?

But in any case, the original thingamajig does not resemble a bankol or its Turkish predecessor.

7th May 2021, 04:11 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	And here is a Ukrainian ( Turkish style) one. Attached Images

4th May 2021, 05:31 AM	#1
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 465	I'm with Ariel. It is certainly a flint striker.

4th May 2021, 11:48 AM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	Just information regarding the item in #11. That's actually a typical Javanese reins holder.

7th May 2021, 07:02 PM	#5
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 498	My immediate impression when I saw the picture was a striker. After reading this thread I still think so, but with less conviction after seeing other possible uses. Could we see the aspect that is facing away in post #8? That would be the area of contact IMHO. I like that it would seem to direct the flint away from the knuckles.

9th May 2021, 06:35 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	You are correct: Alan’s example has nothing to do with Cossacks, India etc. However, engineeringly it is a carbon copy of an item in post #22, that belonged to Zaporozhian ( Ukrainian) cossacks that they in turn copied from Turkish examples. The Indonesians just did not need a belt hook hanger: they carried their weapons either tucked under the belt or hung on a baldrick over the shoulder. I am unaware of Javanese weapons with suspension fittings and rings on the scabbards. Most likely they just took an item from some foreigners and used it for their own purpose.

9th May 2021, 11:34 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Not quite so Ariel. There is a dress style that employs a cloth frog to hold the scabbard of a keris, it it usually worn at the front, mostly employed by Central Javanese courtiers. I can think of no instances where a keris, or other weapon, was carried with a baldrick. Balinese nobles when they wore their sarung high, up pretty much to the armpits, would carry the keris tucked into the top of the sarung, which when worn high is not worn with a setagen (sash) nor sabuk(belt). Some pedangs do have suspension rings on the scabbards, many have hooks on the scabbard that were used both as a belt hook, and as a hook to retain a frog. The reins hook (bankol), might well have originated from a Turkish item, historically there was a strong connection between the court of Central Jawa and Turkey, however, the ones I've shown are most certainly Javanese in style and seemingly effective in the way that are employed. Back in the 1980's I saw a demonstration of Javanese horsemanship where the rider used a bankol, and it worked very well.

9th May 2021, 11:51 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Alan, Thanks for the information. Have you also seen bankols used as sword hanging hooks as well? But in any case, the original thingamajig does not resemble a bankol or its Turkish predecessor.