Pole arm with sun, moon and stars makers stamps.

Jim McDougall · 16th April 2021, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip

Design and construction aren't close to any glaive I've seen, Chinese, European, or otherwise.

How secure is the socket-to-shaft attachment? Like with a cross pin or rivet?
A flensing knife used by whalers comes to mind, but that's just an off-the-cuff impression of mine. (It's been decades since I've read Moby-Dick which comprises most of my limited grasp of the topic.

Thats really an interesting observation Philip! and while I know little about the whaling trade, it does seem a pretty gruesome business in butchering an animal of that size. I believe Melville described this process in "Moby Dick", but I honestly never read it.
There is an entire panoply of tools used in this, and it seems there are some long hafted types using blades of somewhat similar blade form.

What leads me away from the whaling implement thought is the application of these markings, which seem more attuned to the talismanic (or so thought) character of thier presence. These notions I dont think were used in the same manner on tools and utilitarian implements.

fernando · 16th April 2021, 02:27 PM

I would also (humbly) go for the weapon possibility.
One thing that i would like to have clarified is the reason for that slot head screw on the socket, while this is already secured by the riveted langets; as if the socket was not welded to the said langets and could be (easily) disassembled without them

.

Jim McDougall · 16th April 2021, 05:10 PM

Interesting and astute observation on the slot screw on the socket which seems attached 'over' the riveted langets, Fernando.

The blade form and being attached on a 'pole' is what made me think of the Japanese (and Chinese) 'naginata, though the curious blade markings and unusual fullers made me think European.

The squared rivet heads on the langets resemble European types and arrangement, much as on many lances.

Philip · 17th April 2021, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The blade form and being attached on a 'pole' is what made me think of the Japanese (and Chinese) 'naginata, though the curious blade markings and unusual fullers made me think European.

The blade details (look also at cross-section, bevels, and the manner of fullering) are distinctly different between this, and the Asiatic examples you cite. Close (in profile) to be sure, but not a cigar. Also, the piece under consideration has a socket and langet attachment, not seen on the Oriental weapons which invariably feature a tang attached in a slot in the shaft by a couple of cross pins or rivets, and reinforced on the outside by a ferrule and hoops.

Philip · 17th April 2021, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

What leads me away from the whaling implement thought is the application of these markings, which seem more attuned to the talismanic (or so thought) character of thier presence. These notions I dont think were used in the same manner on tools and utilitarian implements.

In some parts of Europe, in pre-industrial times, cutting tools for domestic and craft uses were often deeply marked with punched-in stamps. The Germanic countries were well known for this. Of course, what is really talismanic as opposed to a trademark, or a traditional design popular in the folk memory, is open to interpretation

fernando · 17th April 2021, 01:55 PM

There are weapons, though not so many, in that the blade is separated from the pole for easier transport... or blade integrity. Still it would be more improbable that the (this) socketed blade, when mounted, joined a pole reinforced with its own straps. Yet even more improbable, but possible, would be that the two parts did not belong to each other in the first place.
At this stage it would be vital to hear from Bob, over yet another chance in that the blade is a detachable part and the modern screw is there to prevent the blade from falling off.

Victrix · 17th April 2021, 02:56 PM

Although it can’t be ruled out to be a tool (perhaps supported by the crossed ax symbol), the presence of langets, fullers and the sun, moon and star symbol suggest it’s a polearm. Although langets are often said to prevent opponents from cutting off the poles, I think an important function is to prevent the blade from twisting around the pole end in the heat of the battle which would be frustrating and dangerous for the wielder.

BlackcapBob · 17th April 2021, 06:45 PM

Hello All, thanks for your comments.

Out of curiosity I have removed the slotted screw, the slot head was full of old crud, the screw was tight and rusted in but it has come out, it is a 1/2" screw and not sufficient to hold the head in place the langets are doing that job with the rivets.

Once the screw was removed I gave the head a good tug and twist there was no movement at all, the shaft is nicely chamfered to fit snuggly.

Am I right in thinking that the consensus is heading towards European (Stamps and Fullers) and possibly military/ ceremonial but not of the usual type encountered,

The blade is 18" - 46cm long with three 8"-20cm fullers, the blade nearest the shaft is 1 11/16" - wide by1/4" - 8mm, middle 1 1/2" - 38mm by 1/8" - 4mm widest near tip 1 13/16" - 46mm by 1/16" - 2mm the edge is sharpened from the tip to half way on the blade, it is built to cut not for show. Cheers Bob

fernando · 17th April 2021, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackcapBob

... I have removed the slotted screw, the slot head was full of old crud, the screw was tight and rusted in but it has come out, it is a 1/2" screw and not sufficient to hold the head in place the langets are doing that job with the rivets.

Then comes the one million $ question, Bob; what is the slotted screw for ?
Short as it is (1/2") still it must go through the wood inside, right ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackcapBob

... Once the screw was removed I gave the head a good tug and twist there was no movement at all, the shaft is nicely chamfered to fit snuggly...

Chamfered; not because its langets are 'stuck' inside the socket, but welded to it ? Something only you can tell, having the piece in your hands ... and with naked eyes ...

BlackcapBob · 18th April 2021, 11:31 AM

Morning, I am just speculating but could the screw be used to site the head on the shaft so it doesnt move prior to the langets being finally secured or just a none original addition. To have only one screw isn't going to secure the head for long.

The langets go into the socket of the head no visible welding.

16th April 2021, 05:10 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Interesting and astute observation on the slot screw on the socket which seems attached 'over' the riveted langets, Fernando. The blade form and being attached on a 'pole' is what made me think of the Japanese (and Chinese) 'naginata, though the curious blade markings and unusual fullers made me think European. The squared rivet heads on the langets resemble European types and arrangement, much as on many lances. Attached Images

17th April 2021, 01:55 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Shooting in all directions ... There are weapons, though not so many, in that the blade is separated from the pole for easier transport... or blade integrity. Still it would be more improbable that the (this) socketed blade, when mounted, joined a pole reinforced with its own straps. Yet even more improbable, but possible, would be that the two parts did not belong to each other in the first place. At this stage it would be vital to hear from Bob, over yet another chance in that the blade is a detachable part and the modern screw is there to prevent the blade from falling off.

16th April 2021, 02:27 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I would also (humbly) go for the weapon possibility. One thing that i would like to have clarified is the reason for that slot head screw on the socket, while this is already secured by the riveted langets; as if the socket was not welded to the said langets and could be (easily) disassembled without them .

17th April 2021, 02:56 PM	#7
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 763	Although it can’t be ruled out to be a tool (perhaps supported by the crossed ax symbol), the presence of langets, fullers and the sun, moon and star symbol suggest it’s a polearm. Although langets are often said to prevent opponents from cutting off the poles, I think an important function is to prevent the blade from twisting around the pole end in the heat of the battle which would be frustrating and dangerous for the wielder.

17th April 2021, 06:45 PM	#8
BlackcapBob Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 8	Hello All, thanks for your comments. Out of curiosity I have removed the slotted screw, the slot head was full of old crud, the screw was tight and rusted in but it has come out, it is a 1/2" screw and not sufficient to hold the head in place the langets are doing that job with the rivets. Once the screw was removed I gave the head a good tug and twist there was no movement at all, the shaft is nicely chamfered to fit snuggly. Am I right in thinking that the consensus is heading towards European (Stamps and Fullers) and possibly military/ ceremonial but not of the usual type encountered, The blade is 18" - 46cm long with three 8"-20cm fullers, the blade nearest the shaft is 1 11/16" - wide by1/4" - 8mm, middle 1 1/2" - 38mm by 1/8" - 4mm widest near tip 1 13/16" - 46mm by 1/16" - 2mm the edge is sharpened from the tip to half way on the blade, it is built to cut not for show. Cheers Bob

18th April 2021, 11:31 AM	#10
BlackcapBob Member Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 8	Morning, I am just speculating but could the screw be used to site the head on the shaft so it doesnt move prior to the langets being finally secured or just a none original addition. To have only one screw isn't going to secure the head for long. The langets go into the socket of the head no visible welding.