Shooting a jezail rifle

[mariusgmioc]

Hello,

Not very wise of you to shoot an original antique rifle.
But what am I saying?!
"Not wise" is waaaay too polite!!!

Did you wonder why there aren't many people putting out this kind stunt?!
May it be because they treasure and respect their historical antiques?!


In other words, shooting an antique rifle is equivalent to trying to cut a steel plumbing pipe with an antique wootz shamshir or with a Kamakura period katana.

Are you aware that steel like any other material is subjected to aging and in time it changes dramatically its mechanical properties?!

The fact that your rifle didn't simply blow up in your face may be mere luck. Luck for the rifle!

[Victrix]

Hi Patrick,

How was the recoil? I would imagine it a bit like the kick from a mule? Did you have the butt against your shoulder like a conventional rifle? I was always curious about the strange shape of jezail butts. Some say they were fired with the butt held firmly under the armpit but not sure how they could look along the barrel to take aim properly if that was the case.

[SchildaBrit]

Forget the ímplausible stuff about having the butt under the armpit. It seems that no-one has ever produced a photo or an eye-witness account to substantiate this theory. You hold it just like any other rifle. And in fact the drop makes it easier to hold your head upright and get your eye squarely behind the peephole, rather than in the usual skewed position.

As for recoil - what recoil? this was only 47gn of S3 powder in a rifle that weights almost 6kg.

[SchildaBrit]

The contributor of post #15 is entitled to have an opinion.

He is, however, not entitled to express that opinion rudely, with unfounded assumptions and personal denigration.

[Battara]

SchildaBrit is right - if we can't be civil and not call people names, then I will shut down this thread.

Opinions are fine, but please keep this to the subject at hand.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by SchildaBrit

The contributor of post #15 is entitled to have an opinion.

He is, however, not entitled to express that opinion rudely, with unfounded assumptions and personal denigration.

I sincerely did not want to offend you, and I sincerely appologise if I did!

My message was posted under an impulse as I felt that the test you did was extremely dangerous since, in this case, is impossible to predict how metal aging has affected the steel.

Aged steel ca become alarmingly brittle and crack under minimal stress. And antique gun barrel steel is quite well known for aging badly.

All the best and HAPPY EASTER!

Marius

PS: Effects of aging on steels is well studied and it can be predicted... providig the original compsition of the steel, and the heat treatment are accurately known. Without knowing precisely the composition and heat treatment of the steel, the effects of aging are unpredictable... no matter how deep and sound is one's knowledge on powder loads and firearms safety.
And since, contrary to surface oxidation, aging shows little if any signs discernable with the naked eye, most peope are completely unaware of it.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

... it is impossible to predict how metal aging has affected the steel.

Aged steel can become alarmingly brittle and crack under minimal stress. And gun barrel steel is quite well known of aging badly.
...
Marius

I read somewhere (Churchill?) that at the battle of Omdurman in 1898, many of the Mahdi's men wore rather old maille. It was noted that it had a bad habit of shattering when hit with a sabre or lance (or a bullet). Pre-industrial steel was rather variable before the mid 19c. Early primers as well as gunpowder residue were rather corrosive to barrels if not washed out quickly after use.

[Kubur]

Hi guys,

I just want to say that Marius is a very polite and respectuous forum member, a gentleman like many forum members. Marius can be ironic and he does some jokes, and as I remember, I was also his "victim", but it was well placed and I wasn't offended.

Now the two points of Marius are very valid:

Can we use antique weapons?
Is it dangerous to shot with antique guns?

I love this thread and I admire Schilda, Bobi and of course Rick!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=26201&page=2

But I don't know if you are unconscious or if your knowledge of antique firearms is such that you know that you can use such weapons.

Please tell us more about this point how did you check that you can use an antique gun? And how are you sure that it won't explode in your hands?

The second point is: can we use antique arms? Is it serious and respectful?

For Bobi13, it is part of his culture and there is a cultural link and continuity that I can understand. I use antique incense burner and I don't feel guilty...

So it's more an ethical problem and each of us has his own response. After all you are free to do whatever you want with your possession...

Now I have to look for my egg...

[David R]

Originally Posted by kronckew

I read somewhere (Churchill?) that at the battle of Omdurman in 1898, many of the Mahdi's men wore rather old maille. It was noted that it had a bad habit of shattering when hit with a sabre or lance (or a bullet). Pre-industrial steel was rather variable before the mid 19c. Early primers as well as gunpowder residue were rather corrosive to barrels if not washed out quickly after use.

To the best of my knowledge a lot of that Mahdist mail had been made in Birmingham (UK) originally as dress armour for the Khediv's troops, and then looted by the victorious Mahdists. They were made of split rings, and so were in fact spring steel. Swords weren't the problem, but high velocity jacketed 303 were.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Without knowing precisely the composition and heat treatment of the steel, the effects of aging are unpredictable... no matter how deep and sound is one's knowledge on powder loads and firearms safety.
And since, contrary to surface oxidation, aging shows little if any signs discernable with the naked eye, most peope are completely unaware of it.

"Can we use antique guns?"

Of course we can! We can use whatever we want.

Is it safe?! Is it wise?!

Certainly not!

But... this is only my oppinion...
... based on my knowledge...

PPS: I am mechanical engineer.
Studied metallurgy since high school and still learning...
as I am currently working in the field of machining steel and other metals.

https://qr.ae/pG8xES

The comment at the link above touches several issues I did not mention. But there are even a couple more that should be taken into condideration, like the presence of internal micro-cracks resulted from prolonged use.

[ariel]

I do not like guns and do not use them.
In short, I am a complete gun ignoramus. Therefore, a naive question.

Should not damascus barrels present higher risk of blowing up after a certain period of active shooting? After all, they are composed of multiple layers of steel forged together. There must be some areas of poor contact between the layers. Afghan gunsmiths likely did nor employ the same degree of accuracy and quality control as their Belgian and British colleagues. I have quite a few Indian and Afghani swords, and some of them have areas of poor forging and delamination.
On top of that, depositions of some material within the barrel must increase pressure of the gases there.
We all get old and frail with age, and barrels, like all mechanical thingies , are not an exception.
In short, it is better to be a coward for one minute than a corpse for the rest of your life.

[Will M]

I am not aware that age alone degrades metals. ​
When the elastic limit is not exceeded and barrels have not corroded they retain their properties.

If age alone degrades steel I'd like to see the references for this.

Failures occur in old arms due to corrosion with some methods of manufacture that allow unseen corrosion to exist in flaws in the metal or where joined and hammer welded. Other failures come from overpressures and severe erosion from gas washing.

For the ages we are concerned with of up to a few 100 years, firearms in "good" condition can sustain the same stresses as they could when manufactured. Stay within the original pressures, the barrels will perform as intended.
I fire old Snider/Enfields circ. 1850's and they work well.
I would not fire any old firearm that I cannot view the bore and breech. Lack of cleaning and preserving can lead to corrosion at the breech end that could lead to a pressure failure.

Nothing more than a judgement call as to whether you fire an antique firearm. Many can be enjoyed as functioning arms while others that have been neglected it's best not to.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello,

Not very wise of you to shoot an original antique rifle.
But what am I saying?!
"Not wise" is waaaay too polite!!!

Did you wonder why there aren't many people putting out this kind stunt?!
May it be because they treasure and respect their historical antiques?!


In other words, shooting an antique rifle is equivalent to trying to cut a steel plumbing pipe with an antique wootz shamshir or with a Kamakura period katana.

Are you aware that steel like any other material is subjected to aging and in time it changes dramatically its mechanical properties?!

The fact that your rifle didn't simply blow up in your face may be mere luck. Luck for the rifle!

I realize this is a rather 'direct' reaction, more emotionally based and not necessarily properly phrased or worded, and I know that Marius' first language is not English. However I do understand the reaction from his perspective, I do not like the idea of an antique gun being subject to damage, and naturally do not wish anyone to be hurt or worse from such an accident.

Still, I do respect those well versed in firearms who wish to experience and study the dynamics of these weapons. With that, I realize most who handle and shoot firearms have distinct safety protocols they observe, and these 'tests' are not haphazardly done. I never doubted that Patrick was a well experienced 'shooter' and appreciated his sharing the results of this test.

In truth, these weapons were often dangerous even in their own period, and quite honestly, gun 'explosions' were quite common. Usually these were from improper loading, and many aspects of the loading and firing activity. In actuality, most typical cause of explosion was excessive charge, not weakness in the barrel. With multi chamber revolvers, I have seen cases with cap and ball where multiple chambers fired simultaneously with naturally fatal result to the unfortunate shooter.


Getting to these 'jezail' guns, I bought one two years ago, and while I would fear myself or anyone else firing it, I commend Patrick for his courage and careful method of providing fascinating insights into the true accuracy of these guns.

I very much enjoy the TV series "Pawn Stars", and without exception, one of the key criteria is whether the antique guns they are buying will shoot. If they do not, it is a mark down on the value.
It would seem that experts are able to determine the viability of firing a gun regardless of age based on careful examination of components.

[kronckew]

If you get anywhere near a decent charge in that, I'd tie it to a heavy bench & use a long cord to pull the trigger from a safe distance, and preferably behind something solid, like a concrete wall. Whatever max charge you use, i'd not shoot it thereafter with more than half the load you 'proofed' with. Even then.... Get some Bubba and shout 'Here, hold my beer! as you apply for your Darwin Award. If you have a misfire, wait a good while before going anywhere near the front end. 2 days outta be enough.

p.s. - I read something I didn't know recently, Colt's Walker .45 six-shooter was renowned for blowing up with a full 70 grain charge. The steel was essentially crap. One reason they are so rare & expensive now. They backtracked and recommended not more than 50 grains of FFFG and oversized balls to better seal the chambers to prevent the ajacent chambers from firing all together. A rather spectacular occurance. FFFFG was priming powder for flintlocks and a bit too fast for the main charge. FFG was for cannon. FG for BIG Cannon. Colt stopped making them & made the Dragoon instead, with a shorter cylinder that held less powder, and used better steel. (and had a redesigned loading lever that actually stayed in place when firing) I'm glad my Walker was a modern steel version proofed for the full 70 grains (I used 50). It kicked a mite. - I sewed up a thin leather belt for the loading lever thing. Thought I was smart and wondered why no-one thought of that. Turns out that's what many dragoons did with their Walkers.

Pee ess 2. Civil war sojers, when it got hard to ram home their mini balls, would urinate in the barrels to dissolve the residue, rather than waste water. Works best with a hot barrel. Smells better with a cold one. No one probably noticed as battlefields were very smelly places anyway.