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Old 1st April 2021, 06:37 PM   #1
AHorsa
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Thanks for posting the images. Is the second one old or modern?
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Old 1st April 2021, 07:46 PM   #2
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That one i woldn't know; certainly not from thr period.
(Courtesy The New York Pubic Library)
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Old 2nd April 2021, 01:34 AM   #3
Jim McDougall
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The 'conquistadors' have been a topic that have intrigued me forever it seems, and some of my favorite art has been with these figures in subject.

Years ago of course my impression was that ALL the Spanish in the New World were conquistadors, and of course they all wore morions and steel cuirasses.
In recent years I was surprised that that was not the case, and that the familiar 'combed' morions were not worn in the early conquests of Mexico and Peru by Cortez and Pizarro (first quarter 16th c). In a reference by Walter Karcheski ("Arms and Armor of the Conquistadors", 1990) he notes these were not worn until later in the century and that many of those worn by the conquistadors were actually produced in Italy. Actually many of the Spanish arms and armor had Italian origin due to the provincial connections.
Also, the members of these expeditions were not not necessarily soldiers, but adventurers, ex soldiers and individuals seeking fortunes. As such, many, if not most were self equipped, using all manner of arms and armor, often obsolete and hastily obtained from many sources. There was little uniformity and the armor breast plates were likely minimally present, with mail more common. The helmets were of all manner, mostly cabassets with the morions more known among officers and well heeled members.

It seems that the North Italian arms producing centers had significant influence and contact with not only Spain, but German armourers to the North, notably Munich as one. While the morion did evolve in Spain earlier with the combed peak added to the plainer 'cabasset', the style did catch on in Italy (the Swiss guards at the Vatican) it does seem that the 'Munich' examples would follow suit.

As Fernando has noted, these morions with the fluer de lys which are typically designated 'Munich town guard' are but one of numerous motif and decorations on these helmets .
* the fluer de lys is said to represent the Virgin Mary, who whom the Munich Town Guard were dedicated.

I believe that numbers of these were perhaps among the holdings in the Bavarian National Museum which were de-accessed early in the century and Dr. Hans Stocklein was somehow involved in cataloging. From there it seems there were examples of the helmets in the John Severence collection that went to the Cleveland museum of art.
These may be possible sources for the Munich Town Guard attribution.
It seems there is a type of sword with rapier style hilt also specified to Munich town guard, so this appellation may have been similarly applied, as other swords of the type are known without the connection.

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Old 2nd April 2021, 10:03 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
the fluer de lys is said to represent the Virgin Mary, who whom the Munich Town Guard were dedicated.

I believe that numbers of these were perhaps among the holdings in the Bavarian National Museum which were de-accessed early in the century and Dr. Hans Stocklein was somehow involved in cataloging. From there it seems there were examples of the helmets in the John Severence collection that went to the Cleveland museum of art.
These may be possible sources for the Munich Town Guard attribution.
It seems there is a type of sword with rapier style hilt also specified to Munich town guard, so this appellation may have been similarly applied, as other swords of the type are known without the connection.
Great remarks, Jim! Thanks for this! This may explain the appearance of the fleur de lis on those helmets - seeking for the protection of the Virgin Mary. I think I´ve also seen praises of Virgin Mary on sword blades.

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Old 2nd April 2021, 12:26 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AHorsa
Great remarks, Jim! Thanks for this! This may explain the appearance of the fleur de lis on those helmets - seeking for the protection of the Virgin Mary. I think I´ve also seen praises of Virgin Mary on sword blades.
You bet! glad I could help.
It has often been held that the fluer de lys was a French device, however, with its religious and other connotations it has been known in numerous other contexts.
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Old 2nd April 2021, 10:37 AM   #6
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[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]The 'conquistadors' have been a topic that have intrigued me forever it seems, and some of my favorite art has been with these figures in subject.

Years ago of course my impression was that ALL the Spanish in the New World were conquistadors, and of course they all wore morions and steel cuirasses.
In recent years I was surprised that that was not the case, and that the familiar 'combed' morions were not worn in the early conquests of Mexico and Peru by Cortez and Pizarro (first quarter 16th c). In a reference by Walter Karcheski ("Arms and Armor of the Conquistadors", 1990) he notes these were not worn until later in the century and that many of those worn by the conquistadors were actually produced in Italy. Actually many of the Spanish arms and armor had Italian origin due to the provincial connections.
Also, the members of these expeditions were not not necessarily soldiers, but adventurers, ex soldiers and individuals seeking fortunes. As such, many, if not most were self equipped, using all manner of arms and armor, often obsolete and hastily obtained from many sources. There was little uniformity and the armor breast plates were likely minimally present, with mail more common. The helmets were of all manner, mostly cabassets with the morions more known among officers and well heeled members.

Hi Jim, you have just inspired me to see " conquest of paradise " again !
kind regards
Ulfberth
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Old 2nd April 2021, 12:30 PM   #7
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[QUOTE=ulfberth]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The 'conquistadors' have been a topic that have intrigued me forever it seems, and some of my favorite art has been with these figures in subject.

Years ago of course my impression was that ALL the Spanish in the New World were conquistadors, and of course they all wore morions and steel cuirasses.
In recent years I was surprised that that was not the case, and that the familiar 'combed' morions were not worn in the early conquests of Mexico and Peru by Cortez and Pizarro (first quarter 16th c). In a reference by Walter Karcheski ("Arms and Armor of the Conquistadors", 1990) he notes these were not worn until later in the century and that many of those worn by the conquistadors were actually produced in Italy. Actually many of the Spanish arms and armor had Italian origin due to the provincial connections.
Also, the members of these expeditions were not not necessarily soldiers, but adventurers, ex soldiers and individuals seeking fortunes. As such, many, if not most were self equipped, using all manner of arms and armor, often obsolete and hastily obtained from many sources. There was little uniformity and the armor breast plates were likely minimally present, with mail more common. The helmets were of all manner, mostly cabassets with the morions more known among officers and well heeled members.

Hi Jim, you have just inspired me to see " conquest of paradise " again !
kind regards
Ulfberth

It is the 'romantic' historian in us!!! The arms and armor we study are the forces that take us back into these amazing times! Bon voyage!!!!
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Old 2nd April 2021, 02:47 PM   #8
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Red face Going semantics ?...

Conquistador (conqueror) would be the term used to refer to Spanish and Portuguese soldiers, explorers and adventurers who ventured through the Americas and the Pacific Ocean, on the shores of Asia, in regions controlled by the Portuguese and Spanish between the 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. We know of a Portuguese adventurer, Salvador Ribeiro de Sousa, who managed to be the King of Pegu (Suthern Birmania = Myanmar) in the XVI century. On the other hand, it is rather acceptable that contemporay civilan adventurers (often mercenaries) would wear whatever armout they got hold of.
As for the date Karcheski says that morrions showed up by later in the century, within my illiteracy, i dare say he commits an imprecision. The morrion was born in Castille by early XVI century. Hernando de Soto and Coronado (1540's) are admitted to have supplied them to their infants; as we can also see in a Pizarros's depiction, kept in la Universidad de Chile. Also it would be hard to believe that, a painting by Juan Lepiani, kept in Museo Nacional de Arqueología, Antropología e Historia del Perú, would have Pizarro and the boys wearing the wrong head protection.
Also in a work by Lyliane and Fred Funcken we may see comb (crest) morrions dated 1530 whereas the half comb style would date beg. XVII century.
It is no wonder that these helmets, bearing an appealing look, soon spread all over Europe, becoming a fashionable item for Munich guards, Landsknechts and even the Vatican ... this one even up to nowadays. I wouldn't be surprised that this helmet comb (crest) was thought by many to be an embelishment detail and not conceived to reinforce it.

A random note:
Afonso de Albuquerque (1453-1515) one of he greatest Portuguese (as called) conquistadores, a noble of pure Portuguese lineage, had as his family coat of arms, a shield with four fleures de lys.



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Old 2nd April 2021, 10:13 PM   #9
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As always, Fernando I look forward to your well placed and referenced responses to my ramblings. The heading semantics is of course right in line here, as terms and perceptions are key in what we know of the conquistadors and their appearance and equipment.

Interestingly, the term 'conquistador' was not used to describe these forces of exploration and conquest until the 19th century. Still it describes them resoundingly as we constantly learn more of them and their 'adventures'.

Regarding semantics, I think the terms cabasset (cabacete) and morion are at times interchanged, and these helmets are of often remarkably subtle comparison. ...the 'comb' being the primary feature of attention.

It would be difficult to determine exactly what year the peak of the cabasset was reduced slightly, and the height achieved with the 'comb' along the center of the helmet. I would not dispute Castilian origin, and the burgonet versions of the armet closed helmets also had combs on many versions.

The question is just when did the combed morion with boat shell brim become well known, used, by the conquistadors. ...the term morion is typically used for this form. However, there are cabacete also noted as 'morion', so here is the semantics issue.

In "The Conquistadors" (Terence Wise, Osprey, 1980, p.36, B2) a Spanish arquebusier c. 1520-40 is shown wearing a comb morion with boat shell, with comment this was the TYPICAL Spanish helmet.
However, it is noted , the COMB became more PROMINENT after 1530.

In the same plate, a swordsman of this period is wearing a burgonet, a type of more enclosed helmet but without visor etc. with notes these and light cavalrymen wore these and NOT the morion as often supposed.
The pikemen in the plate wear a 'pear stalk' cabasset with the boat shell c. 1540.

In this reference it is noted (p.35) that with an illustration of a Spanish knight c. 1500-40, he is wearing blackened armor to protect from weather, "...MOST of the captains and gentlemen amongst the conquistadors wore such armor, although some later abandoned all except the helmet in favor of the lighter Indian armor".
Here I would note, the helmet they wore was closed, with armet, vizor and bevor.



In other references, and "European Arms & Armor" (C.H.Ashdown, 1995), p.265, in the transition period (1500-52) one of the salient features of armor was the general use of a close helmet. As noted, ranking figures in the early 16th c. favored the closed helmet, and scholars I have spoken with have noted the favor of variations of these helmets with bevor etc. in the early period of colonization.

While I would dread contesting the veracity of a painting depicting these larger than life figures of history wearing incorrect armor or costume, it seems such license is well known in historically themed art. Here in the US, the topic of Custer and his 'last stand' is terribly misrepresented in many art pieces. Many, possibly even most, events such as cavalry charges etc. are little like the actual event, and often painted many years after the fact.

Looking through "Spanish Arms & Armor" (Calvert, 1908) there are many variations of burgonet, 'morion' and cabacete from late 15th into 16th c. which illustrate the scope of styles in use in these times. I believe what Mr. Karcheski was referring to was that the 'combed morion' did not come into popular use until after c. 1530s, and then in the rather inconsistent use prevalent in these assembled forces in Spain's New World.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 04:26 PM   #10
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Cabasset, a Catalan term here attributed due to its resemblance with a 'cabás' (basket, container). Capacete in both Castillian and Portuguese.
Morrion, a Castillian term derived from 'morra', the top of the head. Morrião in Portuguese.
Looks like disputing which one appeared first is like the egg and the hen dillemma.
If artistic licence ougth to be considered within the universe of author's imagination, its degree may be subject of various factors, from the artist's reliabilty and whether he/she never saw and have the minimum glue of how it has been, to someone who witnessed the subject and even took part in it ... and of course also of his/her artistic gifts.
From what i may figure, forces acting in the same timeline don't necessarily use equipment of the same version or generation; we may have 'X' wearing cabassets in one whereabouts, 'Y' wearing morrions in another episode and 'Z' wearing burgonets, whatever, in yet a different part of the world ... all in the same time period. As there may have been those who pick the newly invented stuff much earlier than others and those who stick to the same gear on an infinite basis.
If Andreas doesn' mind for so much side topic, i would here show a couple of images.
- A detail of the tragic battle of Alcacer Quibir (Ksar-el-Kebir) 1578. The author was Miguel de Andrada, woo took part in this battle, becoming prisoner and later liberated. Here the helmets, some with a plausible look, don't seem to be cabassets.
- Neither is the helmet of this Castillian armour of the second half XV century; which is not surprising due to is earlier age ... although from this one we may realize 'what was coming'.
- Then we have a mural in the palace of Marquis de Santa Cruz, in Ciudad Real, Spain. All those characters are identified as personalities who took part in epic Spanish battles, Lepanto (1571), Ourã (1575), Invincible Armada (1588). Taking apart the fantasy of the interpretation, it is interesting to see the guys wearing a sequence of cabassets and morrions.
- And last, but not least , a Portuguese morrion, XVI-XVII century, with the Cross of Christ and the (King Dom Manuel symbol of choice) Armilar sphere in both sides (collection R. Daehnhardt).

You guys stay safe.


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Old 4th April 2021, 02:19 AM   #11
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The puzzle of the combed morion and just when it became widely known in the New World has proven a bit of a conundrum, and while I do not want to digress too much, it does seem a salient topic as we discuss the example of the OP.

As the late Walter Karcheski, as I noted, described in his monograph on the arms of the Conquistadors (1990), he commented that the 'combed morion' was not used in the early conquests by Pizarro in Peru and Cortes in Mexico. However it became popularized in the years later with other expeditions.
While we know that the design originated in Castile, its inception into wide use seems unclear, but after 1530s beyond it did have a degree of presence in the expeditions that carried on.

I found a useful reference which I used when researching a Spanish leather armor from New Mexico (c.1690s) a number of years ago. It was interesting to learn just how much the early Spaniards used leather and textile armor in these frontiers.
It is "Spanish Arms & Armor in the Southwest" F.S.Curtis, New Mexico Historical Review, Vol. II, #2, 1927.
p.108:
In discussing Coronado (explorations 1540-42) and Onate (1598-1626) the author reveals that , "...of Coronados cavalry, Mota Padilla is our clearest informant, telling us that they were armed with 'lances, swords, and other hand held weapons and some with coats of mail, SALADES and BEAVORS, some of iron and some of RAWHIDE".

further:
"...Coronado himself and his chief officers probably went into battle clothed in full armor which covered them from sole to crown, discarding the less important portions while on the march and at times protecting themselves with cloaks from the sun shining on their steel cuirasses. The battle helmet was probably used very little except when action was imminent".

In other sources it is noted that the closed helmet was used by officers and ranking individuals, it was often replaced by a broad hat that was secretly reinforced by steel bands.

On. p.109, it is reasserted that the SALADE type helmet was a certainty.

These descriptions in this reference are designated as 1) First period, exploration and conquest, presumably 1540-1604+
2) Second period, Revolution and reconquest, 1680+
3) final period 1693-1821.

The plates attached are:
4: (1) ARMET, closed helmet, as used by officers
(2) cavalry SALADE with beavor
* the beavor is covering of lower part of face.
(3) MORION.....here the word is used to describe what is clearly
the pear shaped cabasset
(4)pikemans helmet (pot)
(5) the broad brimmed hat reinforced.

Plate 5, has an armor with a combed morion, which seems presumably to be of the Onate period.

Plate 7 (p123) describes the 2nd period, which is well into the 17th century until 1680s which included the reconquest against Indian revolts. This was the period of the leather armor I was researching (Pueblo Revolt, Santa Fe, 1680s-90s)
Here the combed morion is seen, and is noted "...of somewhat more effective design than previously shown, used by both mounted and dismounted troops". It is noted that these as with other elements and arms, had continued use from earlier times.

I attached pictures (art work) of Cortes, wearing close helmet as well as Pizarro with same.
Note illustration of Coronado wearing morion, a clear case of license.

These morions (aside from highly decorated examples) were for rank and file in the last half of the 16th c. so would seem unlikely for high ranking figures.
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Old 3rd April 2021, 05:56 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando

A random note:
Afonso de Albuquerque (1453-1515) one of he greatest Portuguese (as called) conquistadores, a noble of pure Portuguese lineage, had as his family coat of arms, a shield with four fleures de lys.

.
And doesn't the cross of the Order of Aviz have a fleur-de-lys at the end of each arm?
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Old 3rd April 2021, 12:35 PM   #13
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Default More than a coincidEnce ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
And doesn't the cross of the Order of Aviz have a fleur-de-lys at the end of each arm?
Yes indeed, Filipe.
Remember this Order was implemented by Dom Afonso Henriques first King of Portugal in the XII century and he descended from the French House of Burgundy, whose coat of arms featured mutiple fleur de lys.


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