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Old 1st April 2021, 04:23 PM   #1
AHorsa
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What a great find, Fernando! Those figures really depict history

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Old 1st April 2021, 04:50 PM   #2
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Cristovão Colombo arriving in the New World, an engraving from the XVI century.


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Old 1st April 2021, 04:58 PM   #3
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Francisco Coronado in his expedition from what is now Mexico to present-day Kansas, in 1540-1542.


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Old 1st April 2021, 06:37 PM   #4
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Thanks for posting the images. Is the second one old or modern?
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Old 1st April 2021, 07:46 PM   #5
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That one i woldn't know; certainly not from thr period.
(Courtesy The New York Pubic Library)
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Old 2nd April 2021, 01:34 AM   #6
Jim McDougall
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The 'conquistadors' have been a topic that have intrigued me forever it seems, and some of my favorite art has been with these figures in subject.

Years ago of course my impression was that ALL the Spanish in the New World were conquistadors, and of course they all wore morions and steel cuirasses.
In recent years I was surprised that that was not the case, and that the familiar 'combed' morions were not worn in the early conquests of Mexico and Peru by Cortez and Pizarro (first quarter 16th c). In a reference by Walter Karcheski ("Arms and Armor of the Conquistadors", 1990) he notes these were not worn until later in the century and that many of those worn by the conquistadors were actually produced in Italy. Actually many of the Spanish arms and armor had Italian origin due to the provincial connections.
Also, the members of these expeditions were not not necessarily soldiers, but adventurers, ex soldiers and individuals seeking fortunes. As such, many, if not most were self equipped, using all manner of arms and armor, often obsolete and hastily obtained from many sources. There was little uniformity and the armor breast plates were likely minimally present, with mail more common. The helmets were of all manner, mostly cabassets with the morions more known among officers and well heeled members.

It seems that the North Italian arms producing centers had significant influence and contact with not only Spain, but German armourers to the North, notably Munich as one. While the morion did evolve in Spain earlier with the combed peak added to the plainer 'cabasset', the style did catch on in Italy (the Swiss guards at the Vatican) it does seem that the 'Munich' examples would follow suit.

As Fernando has noted, these morions with the fluer de lys which are typically designated 'Munich town guard' are but one of numerous motif and decorations on these helmets .
* the fluer de lys is said to represent the Virgin Mary, who whom the Munich Town Guard were dedicated.

I believe that numbers of these were perhaps among the holdings in the Bavarian National Museum which were de-accessed early in the century and Dr. Hans Stocklein was somehow involved in cataloging. From there it seems there were examples of the helmets in the John Severence collection that went to the Cleveland museum of art.
These may be possible sources for the Munich Town Guard attribution.
It seems there is a type of sword with rapier style hilt also specified to Munich town guard, so this appellation may have been similarly applied, as other swords of the type are known without the connection.

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Old 2nd April 2021, 10:03 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
the fluer de lys is said to represent the Virgin Mary, who whom the Munich Town Guard were dedicated.

I believe that numbers of these were perhaps among the holdings in the Bavarian National Museum which were de-accessed early in the century and Dr. Hans Stocklein was somehow involved in cataloging. From there it seems there were examples of the helmets in the John Severence collection that went to the Cleveland museum of art.
These may be possible sources for the Munich Town Guard attribution.
It seems there is a type of sword with rapier style hilt also specified to Munich town guard, so this appellation may have been similarly applied, as other swords of the type are known without the connection.
Great remarks, Jim! Thanks for this! This may explain the appearance of the fleur de lis on those helmets - seeking for the protection of the Virgin Mary. I think I´ve also seen praises of Virgin Mary on sword blades.

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Old 2nd April 2021, 10:37 AM   #8
ulfberth
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[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]The 'conquistadors' have been a topic that have intrigued me forever it seems, and some of my favorite art has been with these figures in subject.

Years ago of course my impression was that ALL the Spanish in the New World were conquistadors, and of course they all wore morions and steel cuirasses.
In recent years I was surprised that that was not the case, and that the familiar 'combed' morions were not worn in the early conquests of Mexico and Peru by Cortez and Pizarro (first quarter 16th c). In a reference by Walter Karcheski ("Arms and Armor of the Conquistadors", 1990) he notes these were not worn until later in the century and that many of those worn by the conquistadors were actually produced in Italy. Actually many of the Spanish arms and armor had Italian origin due to the provincial connections.
Also, the members of these expeditions were not not necessarily soldiers, but adventurers, ex soldiers and individuals seeking fortunes. As such, many, if not most were self equipped, using all manner of arms and armor, often obsolete and hastily obtained from many sources. There was little uniformity and the armor breast plates were likely minimally present, with mail more common. The helmets were of all manner, mostly cabassets with the morions more known among officers and well heeled members.

Hi Jim, you have just inspired me to see " conquest of paradise " again !
kind regards
Ulfberth
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Old 2nd April 2021, 02:47 PM   #9
fernando
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Red face Going semantics ?...

Conquistador (conqueror) would be the term used to refer to Spanish and Portuguese soldiers, explorers and adventurers who ventured through the Americas and the Pacific Ocean, on the shores of Asia, in regions controlled by the Portuguese and Spanish between the 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. We know of a Portuguese adventurer, Salvador Ribeiro de Sousa, who managed to be the King of Pegu (Suthern Birmania = Myanmar) in the XVI century. On the other hand, it is rather acceptable that contemporay civilan adventurers (often mercenaries) would wear whatever armout they got hold of.
As for the date Karcheski says that morrions showed up by later in the century, within my illiteracy, i dare say he commits an imprecision. The morrion was born in Castille by early XVI century. Hernando de Soto and Coronado (1540's) are admitted to have supplied them to their infants; as we can also see in a Pizarros's depiction, kept in la Universidad de Chile. Also it would be hard to believe that, a painting by Juan Lepiani, kept in Museo Nacional de Arqueología, Antropología e Historia del Perú, would have Pizarro and the boys wearing the wrong head protection.
Also in a work by Lyliane and Fred Funcken we may see comb (crest) morrions dated 1530 whereas the half comb style would date beg. XVII century.
It is no wonder that these helmets, bearing an appealing look, soon spread all over Europe, becoming a fashionable item for Munich guards, Landsknechts and even the Vatican ... this one even up to nowadays. I wouldn't be surprised that this helmet comb (crest) was thought by many to be an embelishment detail and not conceived to reinforce it.

A random note:
Afonso de Albuquerque (1453-1515) one of he greatest Portuguese (as called) conquistadores, a noble of pure Portuguese lineage, had as his family coat of arms, a shield with four fleures de lys.



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