African cuirass?

colin henshaw · 6th March 2021, 02:07 PM

A suggestion for Panoleon, if he wishes to pursue it ... collecting Movie Props (presumably old ones as well as new), is quite a popular interest and looking on the internet I see there are discussion forums like this one, dedicated to the subject. So perhaps also posting the cuirass in a suitable Movie Props forum would be useful. ( even if it only helps to prove a negative) ?

Panoleon · 6th March 2021, 02:20 PM

Good sugestion Colin, I'll try a movy prop forum.
I bought the cuirass in the Netherlands. It didn't came from a collection.

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2021, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

A suggestion for Panoleon, if he wishes to pursue it ... collecting Movie Props (presumably old ones as well as new), is quite a popular interest and looking on the internet I see there are discussion forums like this one, dedicated to the subject. So perhaps also posting the cuirass in a suitable Movie Props forum would be useful. ( even if it only helps to prove a negative) ?

Thats a great idea Colin! if nothing else to remove this persistent element from the equation. There were I understand numerous firms which produced costume elements for movie studios, the sets and larger items were quite another story.
In California, a rather curious tangent of archaeology has evolved with one foremost recollection, that of finding the remains of architecture of ancient Rome and greece from DeVille's lavish movie productions buried in the desert.

The only way I can imagine this 'armor' item ending up in the Netherlands would be from the incredibly huge volume of materials from West African and Congo regions ending up in Belgium. Some of the best references on African arms are from authors there.

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2021, 05:22 PM

Looking further into the 'cult' , secret society and other such organizations in Africa, it seems such traditions are well steeped into antiquity.
Apparently in Egypt, in about 3rd century AD, there were indeed cults centered around the crocodile, which was revered as sacred and divine, and much feared.
In this time, Roman soldiers occupied Egypt, and in about 1840s, certain exploration around the regions of Manfalut, on the banks of the Nile (250 mi. south of Cairo) discovered a 'cuirass' and helmet of crocodile hide which was found among mummified remains, including of crocodiles.

These pieces are displayed and identified in the British Museum, and have been radiocarbon dated too 3rd c. AD.In the description it notes, 'in many parts of Africa the crocodile is seen as a fearsome and invincible creature ' and that warriors wearing these things might be transformed in some magical way, and take on the formidable attributes of the animal.

While it seems chronologically improbable that practices and traditions such as this would remain in situ in modern tribal societies, it should be noted that numerous examples of such atavism is well represented in Africa.

The plate of illustrations of weapons (British museum) of Egypt shows the remarkable character of modern African arms (19th-20th c) compared to examples of ancient Egypt. It is known that many tribal peoples in the Sahelian and sub Saharan regions had come from very early migrations from Nilotic areas. It seems reasonable that many of these traditions and weapon forms may have diffused along with them.

The profound reverence, and fear, toward the crocodile remains in the Sudan as well, and in conversations with a man of Fur descent (Darfur) I was told that the placement of crocodile hide on the sword was quite totemic.
The kaskara (pics attached) fully clad in crocodile seems excessive in the more common applications, while the Mahdist weapons often had considerable coverage.
However, in certain respects, perhaps in these cult type regalia, this kind of dramatic application may have served well.

The African weapons shown are a Songye axe , Azande sickle saber, and trumbash , all from Congo regions.

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2021, 05:58 PM

Although we are discussing a cuirass from Africa, I wanted to add, at least anecdotally, a similar kind of case from here in Texas.

In the 1870s, armor and a helmet were in the Pecos desert in Texas, near the Rio Grande river by an army doctor, who said they still encased the bones of the wearer. Years later he gave these (less the bones) to anthropologist and army captain John G. Bourke (c. 1890s) . It had been presumed these items had been worn by a 16th century Spanish explorer.

In time, the front and back plate cuirass had been lost, and what remained was the 'mantle' (over shoulders) and a very strange helmet. When these items came into possession of University of Nebraska, research done revealed that Spanish explorers used no such armor, only some mail, and leather armor (curera). The helmet has no comparison to anything whatsoever.

The 'mantle' was comprised of small iron scales, attached to a cotton backing, much in imitation of 'cataphract' (=scaled) armor, and examination revealed these to be of 'bloomery' type process iron, a very old process of smelting far predating the 19th c. methods.

Basically, the 'armor' was of old components, but seemingly amalgamated with material not congruent. The suggestion was that these items might have been from an opera company or fraternal group, but no such groups existed n these regions in those times.

Naturally, those times were wrought with lore and tall tales, and my question is, why would one of these mantles have been worn over a breast and back plate? Over mail I could see, but not sheet armor. The helmet looks like a baseball cap, nothing like anything Ive seen in armor.

Just illustrating these kinds of conundrums have other counterparts.

kronckew · 7th March 2021, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...
The helmet has no comparison to anything whatsoever.

..., but not sheet armor. The helmet looks like a baseball cap, nothing like anything Ive seen in armor.

Just illustrating these kinds of conundrums have other counterparts.

Roman Coolus helmet ~200BC:

Baseball cap 'Visor' is a protective neck piece. Also google 'secret helmets' worn under cloth hats. I've seen one with a circular top bit removed some place before.

6th March 2021, 05:22 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	CROCODILE CULTS Looking further into the 'cult' , secret society and other such organizations in Africa, it seems such traditions are well steeped into antiquity. Apparently in Egypt, in about 3rd century AD, there were indeed cults centered around the crocodile, which was revered as sacred and divine, and much feared. In this time, Roman soldiers occupied Egypt, and in about 1840s, certain exploration around the regions of Manfalut, on the banks of the Nile (250 mi. south of Cairo) discovered a 'cuirass' and helmet of crocodile hide which was found among mummified remains, including of crocodiles. These pieces are displayed and identified in the British Museum, and have been radiocarbon dated too 3rd c. AD.In the description it notes, 'in many parts of Africa the crocodile is seen as a fearsome and invincible creature ' and that warriors wearing these things might be transformed in some magical way, and take on the formidable attributes of the animal. While it seems chronologically improbable that practices and traditions such as this would remain in situ in modern tribal societies, it should be noted that numerous examples of such atavism is well represented in Africa. The plate of illustrations of weapons (British museum) of Egypt shows the remarkable character of modern African arms (19th-20th c) compared to examples of ancient Egypt. It is known that many tribal peoples in the Sahelian and sub Saharan regions had come from very early migrations from Nilotic areas. It seems reasonable that many of these traditions and weapon forms may have diffused along with them. The profound reverence, and fear, toward the crocodile remains in the Sudan as well, and in conversations with a man of Fur descent (Darfur) I was told that the placement of crocodile hide on the sword was quite totemic. The kaskara (pics attached) fully clad in crocodile seems excessive in the more common applications, while the Mahdist weapons often had considerable coverage. However, in certain respects, perhaps in these cult type regalia, this kind of dramatic application may have served well. The African weapons shown are a Songye axe , Azande sickle saber, and trumbash , all from Congo regions. Attached Images

6th March 2021, 05:58 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Interesting comparison Although we are discussing a cuirass from Africa, I wanted to add, at least anecdotally, a similar kind of case from here in Texas. In the 1870s, armor and a helmet were in the Pecos desert in Texas, near the Rio Grande river by an army doctor, who said they still encased the bones of the wearer. Years later he gave these (less the bones) to anthropologist and army captain John G. Bourke (c. 1890s) . It had been presumed these items had been worn by a 16th century Spanish explorer. In time, the front and back plate cuirass had been lost, and what remained was the 'mantle' (over shoulders) and a very strange helmet. When these items came into possession of University of Nebraska, research done revealed that Spanish explorers used no such armor, only some mail, and leather armor (curera). The helmet has no comparison to anything whatsoever. The 'mantle' was comprised of small iron scales, attached to a cotton backing, much in imitation of 'cataphract' (=scaled) armor, and examination revealed these to be of 'bloomery' type process iron, a very old process of smelting far predating the 19th c. methods. Basically, the 'armor' was of old components, but seemingly amalgamated with material not congruent. The suggestion was that these items might have been from an opera company or fraternal group, but no such groups existed n these regions in those times. Naturally, those times were wrought with lore and tall tales, and my question is, why would one of these mantles have been worn over a breast and back plate? Over mail I could see, but not sheet armor. The helmet looks like a baseball cap, nothing like anything Ive seen in armor. Just illustrating these kinds of conundrums have other counterparts. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 6th March 2021 at 06:31 PM.

6th March 2021, 02:07 PM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	A suggestion for Panoleon, if he wishes to pursue it ... collecting Movie Props (presumably old ones as well as new), is quite a popular interest and looking on the internet I see there are discussion forums like this one, dedicated to the subject. So perhaps also posting the cuirass in a suitable Movie Props forum would be useful. ( even if it only helps to prove a negative) ?

6th March 2021, 02:20 PM	#2
Panoleon Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 30	Good sugestion Colin, I'll try a movy prop forum. I bought the cuirass in the Netherlands. It didn't came from a collection.