A large 19th century flintlock pistol

[fernando]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

.. My main argument (and obviously from the records, others who study maritime artifacts) is that many of these pistols saw action during the mentioned events. Here's one from the esteemed London Museum collection-
https://www.diomedia.com/stock-photo...ge6852418.html

This is undoubtedly a private purchase, (not government contracted), right ?; the presence of a ELG* stamp and the absence of British proof marks on the barrel, make it clear. The engraving of the anchor 'could' have been done in Liege. Would you figure out what the two initials mean; the ship or the gun owner ?
I may be playing the fool but, as i never saw it being commented, and for one's perusal, the ELG letters mean ÉPREUVE LIEGE. The star was replaced in 1893 by a crown.

[Norman McCormick]

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...belge%20gb.htm

Hi,
This may be of interest. The guns in question are described as 1815 pattern Dutch-Belgian Navy pistols.
Regards,
Norman.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...belge%20gb.htm

Hi,
This may be of interest. The guns in question are described as 1815 pattern Dutch-Belgian Navy pistols.
Regards,
Norman.

An excelent link, Norman; i use it often to ID gunmakers. I happen to have a (bilingual) little book where Claude Gaier himself writes a synopsis on the Liege weapons making universe.
Fantastic guns shown in it; both Portuguese and Liegeoise

.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge...belge%20gb.htm

Hi,
This may be of interest. The guns in question are described as 1815 pattern Dutch-Belgian Navy pistols.
Regards,
Norman.

This is an excellent article Norman!!! Thank you!

This means that these familiar sea service pistols made in Belgium were well in use by this time (1815). Typically a 'pattern' or 'model' of a weapon type is given that designation as a result of an official order or regulation issued in that year and recognizing the form as distinct and standard.

This means that such a designated weapon has likely been in production and use already for an indeterminate period of time. The bureaucratic wheels in earlier times, incredibly, were even slower than today!
With Spanish weapons, especially in the colonies, for example, the sword colloquially termed the 'bilbo', was often regarded as a M1769, yet had been prior classed as a M1728. We cannot be sure exactly when these arming swords developed, but those years correspond to offical regulations issued.

With English swords, the M1821 swords for light cavalry(three bar hilt) and the 'heavy' with bowl hilt. While production of these began in that year, issues and complaints led to production halting 1824-25,with a hiatus until 1829. As a result these are deemed by many to be techncally 1829's while many call them 1821's.

With these pistols, that they existed as such well prior to 1815 seems to be the case, but it is good to see how they have been referenced in all these sources. The Liege factor is I think much overlooked in arms study, so this remarkably insightful discourse is outstanding!

[M ELEY]

Thanks to everyone for remarking on these interesting firearms. As I am not typically a collector of such, everything written here is food for thought with me.

Thank you, Norman, for that great posting on Leige production! It would seem that there are still questions on some of these pieces and more research needs to be done...but we are off to a good start here!

[Pukka Bundook]

There still appears some confusion over the ELG over a star in an oval.
This stamp is still used, or was as late as 1981 for muzzle -loading black powder arms.

The Crowned mark is for Definitive Black Powder and Military Proof.
This information from the booklet put out by the Worshipful Company of Gunmakers of the City of London, and The Guardians of the Birmingham Proof House.
My copy is from August 1981, so things May have changed since then!

Very best,
Richard.

[fernando]

Richard, this Liege marks universe is not an easy thing to decipher ... at least for me. I know that, in a simplistic manner, the final proof mark ELG * in an oval lasted until circa 1893, when it was added with a crown over the said ELG* in an oval, which lasted until 1920. Only that this crowned version had two sizes, depending on the type of gun.
I hope this helps ... a little.


.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

There still appears some confusion over the ELG over a star in an oval.
This stamp is still used, or was as late as 1981 for muzzle -loading black powder arms.

The Crowned mark is for Definitive Black Powder and Military Proof.
This information from the booklet put out by the Worshipful Company of Gunmakers of the City of London, and The Guardians of the Birmingham Proof House.
My copy is from August 1981, so things May have changed since then!

Very best,
Richard.

Thank you Richard for noting this, apparently the markings have a bit more dimension having these factors set the variation with black powder, nitro and other terms pretty much unknown to the firearms uninitiated (myself incl).