Requesting Help!! Identifying the specifics of a Kris

A. G. Maisey · 5th February 2021, 05:59 AM

"Bandhotan" is a kind of snake.

I know nothing about this dhapur, in fact i did not even know it existed until I looked it up, I only knew "bandhotan" as a tombak dhapur, that has a naga head at each side of its base, the naga bodies twine together and form the odo-odo. The tombak is luk 7.

I think there is possibly one of the Karaton Jogja pusakas that is bandhotan, but I don't know if it is a keris or a tombak.

In the SKA pakem keris bandhotan has 11 luk, but it is pretty widespread practice that if a waved keris agrees with a known dhapur in all except the number of waves it is acceptable to give it as that dhapur + the number of luk, so FX, Keris Dhapur Bandhotan Luk Lima for a keris that has ricikan that agrees to bandhotan, but only 5 luk.

I'm a member of Academia.com, and I used to have the premium pay membership, I dropped that pay membership because I began to get a bit annoyed with Academia, they send you a message every time your name gets mentioned in some publication or other, but regrettably there are several people who have the same name that I do, there's a marine biologist, a 19th century English historian, and others that have a name that is close enough to my name for their little machine to think we're the same person.

It doesn't even stop there, I think I've been sent well over 100 notifications of genuine mentions of my name in some paper or book or other, when I have already seen that mention. Only today I got advised for the umpteenth time that my name is mentioned in a South Sulawesi archaeology paper, it is a genuine mention, but they've told me many more times than once. It is very annoying getting continual emails that do not relate to anything that you might have done, or multiple emails that relate to something you have done.

But it is a twin edged sword, because you get sent publications that are mostly relevant to your own field and that you can download. I have about 200 academic papers that I have downloaded thanks to what gets sent to me from Academia, these are not all keris related papers but they are related to other stuff I'm involved in. I'd say that on balance it is certainly worth joining, but don't get sucked in to the "pay" version.

Mickey the Finn · 15th February 2021, 02:47 PM

Over the years, I've become wary of giving out any of my email addresses for the privelege of access to this or that website. Last autumn I let my guard down for access to academia.org; in retrospect, I may have made a mistake.
I didn't even get a paid membership, but the amount of spam email I get regarding papers only marginally relevant to the topics I originally signed up to read about has got to be among the worst I've ever been plagued by. Every time I log into my email I have to delete dozens of their bothersome notifications. I'm considering blocking all emails from them, but the annoyance factor hasn't yet reached the tipping point for me.
As for keris books... I'm still less-than-actively searching for a Danish-English dictionary to help with Tammens. For books in Bahasa Indonesia, I make do with Tuttle's Concise Indonesian-English Dictionary. I've found it to be quite adequate to "get the gist" of Ensiklopedi Keris, for the most part. Some other keris books contain more words which I suspect are Javanese, or perhaps quite specialized, or of the nature of a "calque"-a "shoe word", or a term which would be understood by native speakers of B.I.
English language books about keris aren't too numerous.
My unlearned opinion is that it is of vital importance and of inestimable value to access online resources written in Bahasa Indonesia, even if such access is gotten through the medium of a translation program. One can learn very much keris lore if one is willing to put in the effort to do the "homework", as it were, and if one has the patience to sort through the "hoo-hah" and sometimes contradictory accounts. Does dhapur jarang goyang make you a chick magnet and/or as virile as a young stallion, or is there an altogether different kebatinan/filsafat? Along the way, you may learn different methods of measuring a keris to determine if you are compatible with it, about the mystical link between the Sultan of Jogjakarta and the Queen of the South, about why a Javanese groom often has a string of flowers draped over the warangka of his keris, about flying keris and disembodied flying heads, the identifying characteristics of certain kinds of "bad iron" used to forge keris. A keris forged of one memorable kind of iron will cause it's owner to become stupid, wasteful, and hated by his boss! You'll learn which pamor will enable you to always be able to find cheap food, which pamor will cause you to never own a home, the bad iron or pamor which will cause your wife to cuckold you, and the pamors which will cause your subordinates to obey you without question or enable you to become friends with almost anyone you meet! You may be able to piece together the reason why one author warns against kissing a keris or smelling it's fragrance [allegedly, doing so may cause your lips and/or nose to fester and rot away!] Much of this information I've only found in Indonesian language sources. English language sources do not discuss the esoteric aspects of keris in anything approaching the extent to which Indonesian sources do.

A. G. Maisey · 15th February 2021, 09:05 PM

I was going to comment on this post of yours Mickey, but I think I've already said what I wanted to say in my post to your "scribd.com" thread.

But I will say this:- just because something has been written in Bahasa Indonesia this does not give it any special value. Everything you read needs to be questioned and cross checked. But then my own objectives are perhaps a little different to those of most people who have a keris interest, so possibly such a stringent approach is not justified for many other people.

For somebody with a beginning keris interest there are a few books that are worth the time to read. I'm pretty sure that they have been mentioned here previously not once, but a number of times.

Once a basic understanding has been achieved it becomes easier to identify the precise areas of understanding, belief & knowledge that one would wish to devote time to.

jagabuwana · 15th February 2021, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey the Finn

sometimes contradictory accounts. Does dhapur jarang goyang make you a chick magnet and/or as virile as a young stallion, or is there an altogether different kebatinan/filsafat?

I've not heard of this dhapur but if it does what it describes on the label, maybe it should be renamed to sering goyang.

A. G. Maisey · 15th February 2021, 11:54 PM

The post that previously occupied this space was poorly worded, it was inaccurately put together and misleading.

Speed kills.

I'm driving slower this time, hopefully I can produce something sensible.

Mickey wrote:-

Does dhapur jarang goyang make you a chick magnet and/or as virile as a young stallion, or is there an altogether different kebatinan/filsafat?

To which Jaga responded:-

--- maybe it should be renamed to sering goyang.

"Jarang goyang" if read as Indonesian means "seldom shake".
"jarang" = seldom, "goyang" - shake

However, if read as Javanese "jarang" means hot water, or more precisely boiling water, and it has a minor or regional meaning that is similar to the Indonesian "seldom".

In Javanese "goyang" has the same meaning as in Indonesian.

I think that most Javanese reading "jarang goyang" would probably read it as "boiling water shake". I just ran this past a couple of Javanese native speakers and asked them to understand it as Javanese and I was told that it doesn't really make sense.

Jaga read "jarang goyang" as Bahasa Indonesia and understood it as "seldom shake" (or similar) and replied in Bahasa Indonesia with "sering goyang", "sering" means often/frequently.

OK, all well and good, but there is no keris dhapur named "jarang goyang".

The correct name is "jaran guyang".

This is Javanese, "jaran" is ngoko for "horse" ( it has secondary meanings, but in this keris context it is "horse".

The word "guyang" occurs in both ngoko & krama and it means bathing livestock (ngguyang = to bathe livestock)

However, in Javanese krama (high level) the word for horse is "kapal".

Some people call this dhapur "kapal guyang", but in ngoko and in Indonesian the word "kapal" means ship, and the word "guyang" can only be used in connection with livestock. So understood as ngoko it is senseless.

The Surakarta Pakem gives the name as "jaran guyang", and this pakem was issued under the aegis of the Karaton Surakarta, so I don't believe it is necessary to use the krama form of this keris name.

Jean · 16th February 2021, 02:02 PM

As a collector I am mainly interested to know that this dapur has 7 waves and is basically the only one without kembang kacang (see pic), and that it is suitable for seducers like myself...

Regards

David · 16th February 2021, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey the Finn

As for keris books... I'm still less-than-actively searching for a Danish-English dictionary to help with Tammens.

Mickey, since Tammens was Dutch you may want to be looking for a Dutch-English dictionary, though since the majority of the Dutch in the 3 volumes of De Kris is also translated into English that probably isn't really necessary for understanding what is written.

A. G. Maisey · 16th February 2021, 08:03 PM

Jean, I cannot see clearly from the photo, but does your keris have a blumbangan that stops at a ridge, and perhaps a tikel alis, or does it merge into the body of the blade? Does it have the remnant of a greneng?

Compare with the example given in the SKA pakem.

David · 16th February 2021, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, I cannot see clearly from the photo, but does your keris have a blumbangan that stops at a ridge, and perhaps a tikel alis, or does it merge into the body of the blade? Does it have the remnant of a greneng?

Compare with the example given in the SKA pakem.

I'm sure Jean can tell you better with the keris in hand, but when i enlarge the image i think i can clearly see defined tikel alis and certainly remnants of greneng.

Jean · 17th February 2021, 09:14 AM

Yes gents, this is dapur jaran guyan "with minor exceptions", the tikel alis is vaguely carved, and the greneng is present but worn

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 17th February 2021, 10:41 AM

Jean, I'd say that if we were to use the SKA pakem as the benchmark, there are more than a few exceptions, but then again, this is really only Surakarta, maybe in Surabaya things are different, and I can find more than a few named dhapurs in that SKA pakem, that more than a few SKA keris people will disagree with.

But all the same, its nice to be able to say something and not generate too much disagreement. If I wanted to stick a name on this keris --- and believe me, I do not --- I'd be looking for a different dhapur but with either more or less luk, for example something that is normally a 9 luk, but I might have a keris exactly the same only it has 5 luk, so I would then name my keris with the same name a the 9 luk, but add "--- luk lima".

Nobody would argue with that.

Well, at least I don't think they would.

But we're talking keris here, anything can happen.

15th February 2021, 02:47 PM	#2
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	Re: Academia.com & keris books. Over the years, I've become wary of giving out any of my email addresses for the privelege of access to this or that website. Last autumn I let my guard down for access to academia.org; in retrospect, I may have made a mistake. I didn't even get a paid membership, but the amount of spam email I get regarding papers only marginally relevant to the topics I originally signed up to read about has got to be among the worst I've ever been plagued by. Every time I log into my email I have to delete dozens of their bothersome notifications. I'm considering blocking all emails from them, but the annoyance factor hasn't yet reached the tipping point for me. As for keris books... I'm still less-than-actively searching for a Danish-English dictionary to help with Tammens. For books in Bahasa Indonesia, I make do with Tuttle's Concise Indonesian-English Dictionary. I've found it to be quite adequate to "get the gist" of Ensiklopedi Keris, for the most part. Some other keris books contain more words which I suspect are Javanese, or perhaps quite specialized, or of the nature of a "calque"-a "shoe word", or a term which would be understood by native speakers of B.I. English language books about keris aren't too numerous. My unlearned opinion is that it is of vital importance and of inestimable value to access online resources written in Bahasa Indonesia, even if such access is gotten through the medium of a translation program. One can learn very much keris lore if one is willing to put in the effort to do the "homework", as it were, and if one has the patience to sort through the "hoo-hah" and sometimes contradictory accounts. Does dhapur jarang goyang make you a chick magnet and/or as virile as a young stallion, or is there an altogether different kebatinan/filsafat? Along the way, you may learn different methods of measuring a keris to determine if you are compatible with it, about the mystical link between the Sultan of Jogjakarta and the Queen of the South, about why a Javanese groom often has a string of flowers draped over the warangka of his keris, about flying keris and disembodied flying heads, the identifying characteristics of certain kinds of "bad iron" used to forge keris. A keris forged of one memorable kind of iron will cause it's owner to become stupid, wasteful, and hated by his boss! You'll learn which pamor will enable you to always be able to find cheap food, which pamor will cause you to never own a home, the bad iron or pamor which will cause your wife to cuckold you, and the pamors which will cause your subordinates to obey you without question or enable you to become friends with almost anyone you meet! You may be able to piece together the reason why one author warns against kissing a keris or smelling it's fragrance [allegedly, doing so may cause your lips and/or nose to fester and rot away!] Much of this information I've only found in Indonesian language sources. English language sources do not discuss the esoteric aspects of keris in anything approaching the extent to which Indonesian sources do.

15th February 2021, 11:54 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	The post that previously occupied this space was poorly worded, it was inaccurately put together and misleading. Speed kills. I'm driving slower this time, hopefully I can produce something sensible. Mickey wrote:- Does dhapur jarang goyang* make you a chick magnet and/or as virile as a young stallion, or is there an altogether different kebatinan/filsafat?* To which Jaga responded:- --- maybe it should be renamed to sering goyang. "Jarang goyang" if read as Indonesian means "seldom shake". "jarang" = seldom, "goyang" - shake However, if read as Javanese "jarang" means hot water, or more precisely boiling water, and it has a minor or regional meaning that is similar to the Indonesian "seldom". In Javanese "goyang" has the same meaning as in Indonesian. I think that most Javanese reading "jarang goyang" would probably read it as "boiling water shake". I just ran this past a couple of Javanese native speakers and asked them to understand it as Javanese and I was told that it doesn't really make sense. Jaga read "jarang goyang" as Bahasa Indonesia and understood it as "seldom shake" (or similar) and replied in Bahasa Indonesia with "sering goyang", "sering" means often/frequently. OK, all well and good, but there is no keris dhapur named "jarang goyang". The correct name is "jaran guyang". This is Javanese, "jaran" is ngoko for "horse" ( it has secondary meanings, but in this keris context it is "horse". The word "guyang" occurs in both ngoko & krama and it means bathing livestock (ngguyang = to bathe livestock) However, in Javanese krama (high level) the word for horse is "kapal". Some people call this dhapur "kapal guyang", but in ngoko and in Indonesian the word "kapal" means ship, and the word "guyang" can only be used in connection with livestock. So understood as ngoko it is senseless. The Surakarta Pakem gives the name as "jaran guyang", and this pakem was issued under the aegis of the Karaton Surakarta, so I don't believe it is necessary to use the krama form of this keris name. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 16th February 2021 at 02:38 AM. Reason: Poor expression

16th February 2021, 02:02 PM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	As a collector I am mainly interested to know that this dapur has 7 waves and is basically the only one without kembang kacang (see pic), and that it is suitable for seducers like myself... Regards Attached Images

5th February 2021, 05:59 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	"Bandhotan" is a kind of snake. I know nothing about this dhapur, in fact i did not even know it existed until I looked it up, I only knew "bandhotan" as a tombak dhapur, that has a naga head at each side of its base, the naga bodies twine together and form the odo-odo. The tombak is luk 7. I think there is possibly one of the Karaton Jogja pusakas that is bandhotan, but I don't know if it is a keris or a tombak. In the SKA pakem keris bandhotan has 11 luk, but it is pretty widespread practice that if a waved keris agrees with a known dhapur in all except the number of waves it is acceptable to give it as that dhapur + the number of luk, so FX, Keris Dhapur Bandhotan Luk Lima for a keris that has ricikan that agrees to bandhotan, but only 5 luk. I'm a member of Academia.com, and I used to have the premium pay membership, I dropped that pay membership because I began to get a bit annoyed with Academia, they send you a message every time your name gets mentioned in some publication or other, but regrettably there are several people who have the same name that I do, there's a marine biologist, a 19th century English historian, and others that have a name that is close enough to my name for their little machine to think we're the same person. It doesn't even stop there, I think I've been sent well over 100 notifications of genuine mentions of my name in some paper or book or other, when I have already seen that mention. Only today I got advised for the umpteenth time that my name is mentioned in a South Sulawesi archaeology paper, it is a genuine mention, but they've told me many more times than once. It is very annoying getting continual emails that do not relate to anything that you might have done, or multiple emails that relate to something you have done. But it is a twin edged sword, because you get sent publications that are mostly relevant to your own field and that you can download. I have about 200 academic papers that I have downloaded thanks to what gets sent to me from Academia, these are not all keris related papers but they are related to other stuff I'm involved in. I'd say that on balance it is certainly worth joining, but don't get sucked in to the "pay" version.

15th February 2021, 09:05 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	I was going to comment on this post of yours Mickey, but I think I've already said what I wanted to say in my post to your "scribd.com" thread. But I will say this:- just because something has been written in Bahasa Indonesia this does not give it any special value. Everything you read needs to be questioned and cross checked. But then my own objectives are perhaps a little different to those of most people who have a keris interest, so possibly such a stringent approach is not justified for many other people. For somebody with a beginning keris interest there are a few books that are worth the time to read. I'm pretty sure that they have been mentioned here previously not once, but a number of times. Once a basic understanding has been achieved it becomes easier to identify the precise areas of understanding, belief & knowledge that one would wish to devote time to.

16th February 2021, 08:03 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Jean, I cannot see clearly from the photo, but does your keris have a blumbangan that stops at a ridge, and perhaps a tikel alis, or does it merge into the body of the blade? Does it have the remnant of a greneng? Compare with the example given in the SKA pakem.

17th February 2021, 09:14 AM	#10
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Yes gents, this is dapur jaran guyan "with minor exceptions", the tikel alis is vaguely carved, and the greneng is present but worn Regards

17th February 2021, 10:41 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Jean, I'd say that if we were to use the SKA pakem as the benchmark, there are more than a few exceptions, but then again, this is really only Surakarta, maybe in Surabaya things are different, and I can find more than a few named dhapurs in that SKA pakem, that more than a few SKA keris people will disagree with. But all the same, its nice to be able to say something and not generate too much disagreement. If I wanted to stick a name on this keris --- and believe me, I do not --- I'd be looking for a different dhapur but with either more or less luk, for example something that is normally a 9 luk, but I might have a keris exactly the same only it has 5 luk, so I would then name my keris with the same name a the 9 luk, but add "--- luk lima". Nobody would argue with that. Well, at least I don't think they would. But we're talking keris here, anything can happen.