How old is this Tulwar?

Gonzoadler · 29th January 2021, 08:02 AM

blade:

mariusgmioc · 29th January 2021, 10:06 AM

My guess would be around 1900.

Kubur · 29th January 2021, 01:26 PM

Come on Marius, this is a very good 19th c. tulwar!
Maybe the scabbard is from the 20th c.
I have no idea if the thick blade is from the 18th or the 19th...
But I wont be surprised if the blade is older, if you read Elgood you can see that 95% of the tulwars have replacement hilts.
The blade looks Indian but I might be wrong.

mariusgmioc · 29th January 2021, 02:14 PM

18th century or earlier tulwars generally have thinner plain blades with no fullers.

This blade appears to be Indian but emulating the European blades.

Thus, I stand by my estimation of around 1900... or later.

Pukka Bundook · 29th January 2021, 03:13 PM

Marius,

We cannot generalise in this manner.
Tulwars have been made with fullered blades for centuries.
Also blade thickness has nothing to do with age, as tulwar blades were made wide and flat, and narrow and thick for centuries and each type has its own name.
A Halab is still a tulwar, but has the narrower but thicker blade, and was used throughout the 18th and 19th centuries.
In a country as large and diverse as India, there are vast variations in styles and shapes.
I know Nothing of tulwars compared to Jens, and others here, and my time is always So limited I have not done half the research I would like to, but this V nice tulwar appears to me Rajasthan, ...and the diaper pattern koftgari , I'd put it in the middle of the 19th century, or maybe a bit earlier.
I may be wrong :-)

Does Jens still post here?

In his beautiful book showing his collection, you can see Very many fullered and multi-fullered blades from the 17th 18th century....And multi-fullered katar blades from the 16th century.

Gonzo,
I would suggest you do a search on this forum;
Something like "19th century Tulwar, ( talwar) and see what shows up similar to yours.

All best to all!
Richard.

Pukka Bundook · 29th January 2021, 03:19 PM

Apologies, double post!

Jim McDougall · 29th January 2021, 05:14 PM

VERY well said Richard!
Trying to itemize swords of India, especially the tulwar, is pretty much futile and really does require a great deal of research and knowledge of India's history to attempt specific classifications with any degree of viability.

As pointed out, there were many variations and options which existed contemporarily and also as well noted, swords were almost consistently remounted, as common with many ethnographic swords.
The replacement of scabbards is pretty much standard, as the materials were generally less durable of course and did not last through the longer working lives of the blades.

Rajasthan is sort of like the 'Texas' of India, it is huge, and the many centers of sword making were in these regions of India. Here were typically the shops producing hilts as well, and these often went to other locations, where they were decorated in the locally favored fashion, for example to Lucknow where enameling was prevalent etc.

With this tulwar, it is of course safe to say it is 19th century as this is the time when these examples became popularly known through the British Raj.
There was still much activity in hilt making, as well as blade making along with importing of them.
The blade here appears to be Indian, most likely from Rajasthan, and I would say safely mid to latter 19th c. It is not of the styling of European saber blades earlier nor of contemporary 19th c. European forms, though it reflects influence.

The hilt is of a number of Rajasthani types but I think these open hilt with close in quillons were typically Mughal (though here I am probably generalizing). The reason I say that is that the Rajput and Sikh examples seem to have more substantial elements (knuckleguard, larger pommel dish) and less 'decoration' (again generalizng).

Obviously those comments are subject to the countless exceptions which exist in tulwars, which were diversely used over much of India for centuries.

PS
Gonzo I am inclined to agree with your excellent observation on the hilt, I think it is older than the blade (or at least not original to it) and seems to be more of the type I have usually regarded as 'court' or official type which typically have less substantial blades.

Norman McCormick · 29th January 2021, 05:42 PM

The blades I have seen of this kind have been curved a bit more or less, but never to an extreme. The yelman can be more or less pronounced. They have no fuller or only a broad single one. They are all broad and heavy blades, and they are 17th or early 18th century blades.

Jens

Hi,
The above is a comment on the particular blade in these photographs. I have another late 18thC Tulwar which also has a thick and heavy blade without fullers.
Regards,
Norman.

29th January 2021, 08:02 AM	#1
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 255	blade: Attached Images

29th January 2021, 03:19 PM	#6
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Apologies, double post! Last edited by Pukka Bundook; 29th January 2021 at 08:17 PM.

29th January 2021, 05:42 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	The blades I have seen of this kind have been curved a bit more or less, but never to an extreme. The yelman can be more or less pronounced. They have no fuller or only a broad single one. They are all broad and heavy blades, and they are 17th or early 18th century blades. Jens Hi, The above is a comment on the particular blade in these photographs. I have another late 18thC Tulwar which also has a thick and heavy blade without fullers. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

29th January 2021, 10:06 AM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	My guess would be around 1900.

29th January 2021, 01:26 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Come on Marius, this is a very good 19th c. tulwar! Maybe the scabbard is from the 20th c. I have no idea if the thick blade is from the 18th or the 19th... But I wont be surprised if the blade is older, if you read Elgood you can see that 95% of the tulwars have replacement hilts. The blade looks Indian but I might be wrong.

29th January 2021, 02:14 PM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	18th century or earlier tulwars generally have thinner plain blades with no fullers. This blade appears to be Indian but emulating the European blades. Thus, I stand by my estimation of around 1900... or later.

29th January 2021, 03:13 PM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Marius, We cannot generalise in this manner. Tulwars have been made with fullered blades for centuries. Also blade thickness has nothing to do with age, as tulwar blades were made wide and flat, and narrow and thick for centuries and each type has its own name. A Halab is still a tulwar, but has the narrower but thicker blade, and was used throughout the 18th and 19th centuries. In a country as large and diverse as India, there are vast variations in styles and shapes. I know Nothing of tulwars compared to Jens, and others here, and my time is always So limited I have not done half the research I would like to, but this V nice tulwar appears to me Rajasthan, ...and the diaper pattern koftgari , I'd put it in the middle of the 19th century, or maybe a bit earlier. I may be wrong :-) Does Jens still post here? In his beautiful book showing his collection, you can see Very many fullered and multi-fullered blades from the 17th 18th century....And multi-fullered katar blades from the 16th century. Gonzo, I would suggest you do a search on this forum; Something like "19th century Tulwar, ( talwar) and see what shows up similar to yours. All best to all! Richard.

29th January 2021, 05:14 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	VERY well said Richard! Trying to itemize swords of India, especially the tulwar, is pretty much futile and really does require a great deal of research and knowledge of India's history to attempt specific classifications with any degree of viability. As pointed out, there were many variations and options which existed contemporarily and also as well noted, swords were almost consistently remounted, as common with many ethnographic swords. The replacement of scabbards is pretty much standard, as the materials were generally less durable of course and did not last through the longer working lives of the blades. Rajasthan is sort of like the 'Texas' of India, it is huge, and the many centers of sword making were in these regions of India. Here were typically the shops producing hilts as well, and these often went to other locations, where they were decorated in the locally favored fashion, for example to Lucknow where enameling was prevalent etc. With this tulwar, it is of course safe to say it is 19th century as this is the time when these examples became popularly known through the British Raj. There was still much activity in hilt making, as well as blade making along with importing of them. The blade here appears to be Indian, most likely from Rajasthan, and I would say safely mid to latter 19th c. It is not of the styling of European saber blades earlier nor of contemporary 19th c. European forms, though it reflects influence. The hilt is of a number of Rajasthani types but I think these open hilt with close in quillons were typically Mughal (though here I am probably generalizing). The reason I say that is that the Rajput and Sikh examples seem to have more substantial elements (knuckleguard, larger pommel dish) and less 'decoration' (again generalizng). Obviously those comments are subject to the countless exceptions which exist in tulwars, which were diversely used over much of India for centuries. PS Gonzo I am inclined to agree with your excellent observation on the hilt, I think it is older than the blade (or at least not original to it) and seems to be more of the type I have usually regarded as 'court' or official type which typically have less substantial blades.