British officer's blunderbuss pistol

Jim McDougall · 29th January 2021, 01:19 AM

So more research in this web of intrigue, as I found some more books:
"British Military Firearms", Howard Blackmore, 1962
"English Pistols and Revolvers" , J.Nigel George, 1938

Blackmore, p.64,
"...in 1781 the gunmaker John Waters took out a patent for guns with folding bayonets. It was a very old idea- Deschamps published his in 1718 (Machines et Inventions Approuvees par l'Academic Royale des Sciences)- but it seems to have led to a revival in the gadgets, and in 1783, 100 carbines with a joint or folding bayonet were purchased. "
further,
"Eight carbines with spring bayonets were also issued for a 'secret mission' in September, 1794 (W/O 46/24). "

This makes these bayonets sound all 'M' from James Bond.

George , p.66,
describes a bell mouthed brass pistol of the BOARDING PISTOL type sometimes carried by naval officers of this period (late 18thc)and intended for use in hand to hand combat. In the pistol he describes however(which is by Waters) the bayonet is released by pulling a second trigger. The author also errs in stating the year of the patent as 1776 (it was 1781).
He illustrates the pistol in Plate IX but it is not very good.
Another pistol of the type by James Daniel is shown, with bayonet atop the barrel, and dates 1800.
The Waters pistol is dated 1781 by the silver Birmingham mark for that year on the silver butt plate.

on p.95, George notes that the tactics of that time, with Rodney and Nelson , were to close with the enemy by boarding, and bringing the action to a decisive end.

Concerning Stephen Wallis,

Blackmore p.116, describes a shooting contest with the Duke of Cumberlands
Corps of Sharpshooters in August of 1803.
One of the first rifles used, believed to have been by the Great Packington Volunteers, had a hair trigger, a folding aperture rearsight and a bayonet stud under the muzzle. It had a 30" barrel and an unusual style bayonet to attach.

It would seem that our Stephen Wallis was already a quite accomplished gunsmith in 1803.

In another reference (George p.98) he shows a screw barrel pocket pistol which is strikingly similar but smaller, and much smaller bayonet, clearly a novelty. It has the Birmingham Proof Company mark, so is presumed post 1813, and the lock is marked London. There is a blank space for the name of the retailer so appears to have been for the London market, but apparently never sold.

This suggests that apparently there were 'blanks' made in some cases for retailers, so the name could be filled in.

The flared barrel seems indicative of an earlier pistol, or perhaps more to the naval use, as these other pistols barrels are straight.

I just wanted to see if S. Wallis might have earlier presence, which it seems he does, and to have been notably skilled as referenced by Mr. Blackmore, who was one of the most highly regarded authorities on British firearms.

Fernando K · 29th January 2021, 08:57 PM

Hello

My understanding is that the crowned P predates the official establishment of the Birmingham Test Bench in 1813. Therefore the date would be earlier than 1813

Affectionately

M ELEY · 30th January 2021, 08:09 AM

Thank you, Jim and Fernando K, for this information! I had totally forgotten about the early P/crown stamp! Fernando, you have confirmed what Jim had surmised that the block letter signature for Wallis was, in fact, an earlier mark by this maker. I'm very happy with this, as the pre-1813 date puts this naval piece into the Napoleonic/War of 1812 era! Excellent!

corrado26 · 5th March 2021, 03:07 PM

Does anyone have some detailed documentation relative to the 1781 patent of the spring bayonet granted to John Waters?

Dmitry · 29th May 2021, 03:43 AM

The crowned P and V marks are the private Birmingham proof marks. It's a nice pistol, but I don't see it as "highly popular with naval officers" without proof (no pun intended). The example Jim posted in #7 looks more like a private purchase martial arm, a nice, beefy stock, along the lines of an officer's pistol. I suppose an officer could've bought any kind of pistol his wallet allowed, but I would imagine many of the commissioned officers relied on their ship's sea service pistols, if the need arose.

corrado26 · 29th May 2021, 09:14 AM

Finally a portrait of George Wallis

Raf · 29th May 2021, 12:16 PM

So why might Wallis choose to have himself depicted holding an extremely rare German all steel Wheelock pistol from about 1550 ?
Answer George Wallis was a celebrated Antiquary and Gunsmith who established a museum at his Mytonngate premises by 1794 displaying not only weapons but coins, ores and petrifications. The weapons included the all -steel Brunswick wheelock pistol shown in the portrait.

29th May 2021, 03:43 AM	#5
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	The crowned P and V marks are the private Birmingham proof marks. It's a nice pistol, but I don't see it as "highly popular with naval officers" without proof (no pun intended). The example Jim posted in #7 looks more like a private purchase martial arm, a nice, beefy stock, along the lines of an officer's pistol. I suppose an officer could've bought any kind of pistol his wallet allowed, but I would imagine many of the commissioned officers relied on their ship's sea service pistols, if the need arose. Last edited by Dmitry; 29th May 2021 at 03:58 AM.

29th May 2021, 09:14 AM	#6
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,242	Finally a portrait of George Wallis Attached Images

29th January 2021, 01:19 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	So more research in this web of intrigue, as I found some more books: "British Military Firearms", Howard Blackmore, 1962 "English Pistols and Revolvers" , J.Nigel George, 1938 Blackmore, p.64, "...in 1781 the gunmaker John Waters took out a patent for guns with folding bayonets. It was a very old idea- Deschamps published his in 1718 (Machines et Inventions Approuvees par l'Academic Royale des Sciences)- but it seems to have led to a revival in the gadgets, and in 1783, 100 carbines with a joint or folding bayonet were purchased. " further, "Eight carbines with spring bayonets were also issued for a 'secret mission' in September, 1794 (W/O 46/24). " This makes these bayonets sound all 'M' from James Bond. George , p.66, describes a bell mouthed brass pistol of the BOARDING PISTOL type sometimes carried by naval officers of this period (late 18thc)and intended for use in hand to hand combat. In the pistol he describes however(which is by Waters) the bayonet is released by pulling a second trigger. The author also errs in stating the year of the patent as 1776 (it was 1781). He illustrates the pistol in Plate IX but it is not very good. Another pistol of the type by James Daniel is shown, with bayonet atop the barrel, and dates 1800. The Waters pistol is dated 1781 by the silver Birmingham mark for that year on the silver butt plate. on p.95, George notes that the tactics of that time, with Rodney and Nelson , were to close with the enemy by boarding, and bringing the action to a decisive end. Concerning Stephen Wallis, Blackmore p.116, describes a shooting contest with the Duke of Cumberlands Corps of Sharpshooters in August of 1803. One of the first rifles used, believed to have been by the Great Packington Volunteers, had a hair trigger, a folding aperture rearsight and a bayonet stud under the muzzle. It had a 30" barrel and an unusual style bayonet to attach. It would seem that our Stephen Wallis was already a quite accomplished gunsmith in 1803. In another reference (George p.98) he shows a screw barrel pocket pistol which is strikingly similar but smaller, and much smaller bayonet, clearly a novelty. It has the Birmingham Proof Company mark, so is presumed post 1813, and the lock is marked London. There is a blank space for the name of the retailer so appears to have been for the London market, but apparently never sold. This suggests that apparently there were 'blanks' made in some cases for retailers, so the name could be filled in. The flared barrel seems indicative of an earlier pistol, or perhaps more to the naval use, as these other pistols barrels are straight. I just wanted to see if S. Wallis might have earlier presence, which it seems he does, and to have been notably skilled as referenced by Mr. Blackmore, who was one of the most highly regarded authorities on British firearms.

29th January 2021, 08:57 PM	#2
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 672	Hello My understanding is that the crowned P predates the official establishment of the Birmingham Test Bench in 1813. Therefore the date would be earlier than 1813 Affectionately

30th January 2021, 08:09 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,206	Thank you, Jim and Fernando K, for this information! I had totally forgotten about the early P/crown stamp! Fernando, you have confirmed what Jim had surmised that the block letter signature for Wallis was, in fact, an earlier mark by this maker. I'm very happy with this, as the pre-1813 date puts this naval piece into the Napoleonic/War of 1812 era! Excellent!

5th March 2021, 03:07 PM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,242	Does anyone have some detailed documentation relative to the 1781 patent of the spring bayonet granted to John Waters?

29th May 2021, 12:16 PM	#7
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	So why might Wallis choose to have himself depicted holding an extremely rare German all steel Wheelock pistol from about 1550 ? Answer George Wallis was a celebrated Antiquary and Gunsmith who established a museum at his Mytonngate premises by 1794 displaying not only weapons but coins, ores and petrifications. The weapons included the all -steel Brunswick wheelock pistol shown in the portrait. Last edited by Raf; 29th May 2021 at 12:39 PM.