Kujang for comments

David · 26th January 2021, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello David,

Like said, I've handled this piece before it went to Paolo, scabbard and handle has been painted and on all stick out places the wood was visible with a real nice patination, it was 2006/7 old when not antique, I remember this very well since I thought to this time to see a much younger piece but by close examination I have to agree with Wolfgang. He has shown me this thread later and was very angry that some people stated that it's recent. The pictures from Paolo are sadly not very meaningful.
What's interesting is that the handle and scabbard from Gonzoadlers piece have the same overall appearance like this old one. Traditional style??

I have only ever seen this style of dress for kujang as contemporary (meaning post WWII). If push came to shove, without benefit of better photos or hands-on inspection, i would still have to say this dress form is not antique. My apologies to Wolfgang.

A. G. Maisey · 26th January 2021, 07:40 PM

David, I would tend to agree that this style of dress probably is not particularly old, but my personal opinion is that it could go back to perhaps a bit before WWII, maybe the 1920's.

This is opinion only, not something I am able to substantiate, but I have seen similar styles of dress on various other items of tosan aji that were supposedly, and looked to be, from the late colonial era, ie pre-WWII.

David · 26th January 2021, 09:55 PM

Thanks Alan, that's good to know.

Sajen · 26th January 2021, 10:51 PM

Yes, the 1920's is a time frame which is possible for the scabbard and handle from Paolo's kujang.
Wolfgang doesn't care anymore, he is deceased, But I am miffed since you don't believe my words!

A. G. Maisey · 27th January 2021, 04:18 AM

Detlef, I believe you absolutely, moreover I believe whoever gave you the information that you passed on, but what I believe is that Wolfgang, and the others who were responsible for this information did not provide you with information that they knew was incorrect.

This sort of thing is always a problem, because when we state an age for something that does not have some sort of very clear proof of age, all we are doing is expressing an opinion. Some opinions are perhaps better than others, but I doubt that any serious and well known personage such as Wolfgang was, would deliberately give an opinion that he had cause to believe was incorrect.

So Wolfgang believed in his estimate of age, and you believed him. I believe in my estimate, David believes in his estimate, and really, none of us can prove anything.

So why not just let precise age go and accept that we are looking at something with some age. Forget the "antique" idea, it is a fatuous concept at the best of times, just think in terms of era:- Late Colonial.

David · 27th January 2021, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

So Wolfgang believed in his estimate of age, and you believed him. I believe in my estimate, David believes in his estimate, and really, none of us can prove anything.
So why not just let precise age go and accept that we are looking at something with some age. Forget the "antique" idea, it is a fatuous concept at the best of times, just think in terms of era:- Late Colonial.

Well Alan, "belief" would be a strong word for my "if push can to shove" opinion here. I just have never seen any really old versions of this particular dress form and it is quite popular in contemporary kujangs. I did note that i felt it had some age, but i am not at all convinced of my opinion that it is post WWII and would very easily be pushed towards your term "Late Colonial". When i raised the question with Detlef i had hoped that he or others might be able to provide some images of more examples of truly antique versions of this dress form. I can only form opinions based upon what i know so far, but my mind is certainly not set on the issue. I will still point out that even the 1920s would still only place this kujang on the very cusp of what is generally considered "antique".
More of what was getting at in my opinion is that this form of dress is probably still relatively recent for kujang and not really the kind of dress we are likely to see on old kujang from periods when they were a more active part of Sundanese culture.

Sajen · 27th January 2021, 10:16 PM

@ Alan,

So I was very careful and have spoken from "old/antique", like said, I've handled this piece so it's my own age estimation, not something I get passed on, I believe myself!

It has clearly age what Paolo also confirmed in the above given thread.
Anyway, the dress has some age and was far better carved as the most recent ones I've seen until now.
But I am very ok with the term "Late Colonial"!

@ David,

Sadly I am not able to show other examples, my aim was to show an older dress in the same fashion. Like said, it's my own opinion that this piece has age, not an opinion I parrot.
How an original dress originally has looked we maybe never will know when we are not able to see an antique one with provenance.

Regards,
Detlef

26th January 2021, 07:40 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	David, I would tend to agree that this style of dress probably is not particularly old, but my personal opinion is that it could go back to perhaps a bit before WWII, maybe the 1920's. This is opinion only, not something I am able to substantiate, but I have seen similar styles of dress on various other items of tosan aji that were supposedly, and looked to be, from the late colonial era, ie pre-WWII.

26th January 2021, 09:55 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,236	Thanks Alan, that's good to know.

26th January 2021, 10:51 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,323	Yes, the 1920's is a time frame which is possible for the scabbard and handle from Paolo's kujang. Wolfgang doesn't care anymore, he is deceased, But I am miffed since you don't believe my words!

27th January 2021, 04:18 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Detlef, I believe you absolutely, moreover I believe whoever gave you the information that you passed on, but what I believe is that Wolfgang, and the others who were responsible for this information did not provide you with information that they knew was incorrect. This sort of thing is always a problem, because when we state an age for something that does not have some sort of very clear proof of age, all we are doing is expressing an opinion. Some opinions are perhaps better than others, but I doubt that any serious and well known personage such as Wolfgang was, would deliberately give an opinion that he had cause to believe was incorrect. So Wolfgang believed in his estimate of age, and you believed him. I believe in my estimate, David believes in his estimate, and really, none of us can prove anything. So why not just let precise age go and accept that we are looking at something with some age. Forget the "antique" idea, it is a fatuous concept at the best of times, just think in terms of era:- Late Colonial.

27th January 2021, 10:16 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,323	@ Alan, So I was very careful and have spoken from "old/antique", like said, I've handled this piece so it's my own age estimation, not something I get passed on, I believe myself! It has clearly age what Paolo also confirmed in the above given thread. Anyway, the dress has some age and was far better carved as the most recent ones I've seen until now. But I am very ok with the term "Late Colonial"! @ David, Sadly I am not able to show other examples, my aim was to show an older dress in the same fashion. Like said, it's my own opinion that this piece has age, not an opinion I parrot. How an original dress originally has looked we maybe never will know when we are not able to see an antique one with provenance. Regards, Detlef