Kujang for comments

David · 25th January 2021, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

In this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=kujang is shown one in an old/antique dress. I have handled this piece personally, it was sold to Paolo from Wolfgang Spielmann.

hmmm....what leads you to believe this dress is antique? While it shows some age i would not have thought this to be pre-WWII, though certainly the blade is.

Sajen · 25th January 2021, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

hmmm....what leads you to believe this dress is antique? While it shows some age i would not have thought this to be pre-WWII, though certainly the blade is.

Hello David,

Like said, I've handled this piece before it went to Paolo, scabbard and handle has been painted and on all stick out places the wood was visible with a real nice patination, it was 2006/7 old when not antique, I remember this very well since I thought to this time to see a much younger piece but by close examination I have to agree with Wolfgang. He has shown me this thread later and was very angry that some people stated that it's recent. The pictures from Paolo are sadly not very meaningful.
What's interesting is that the handle and scabbard from Gonzoadlers piece have the same overall appearance like this old one. Traditional style??

kronckew · 25th January 2021, 07:12 PM

See also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=kujang

Mine for comparison, it has a fairly large blade, about a foot long.

David · 26th January 2021, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello David,

Like said, I've handled this piece before it went to Paolo, scabbard and handle has been painted and on all stick out places the wood was visible with a real nice patination, it was 2006/7 old when not antique, I remember this very well since I thought to this time to see a much younger piece but by close examination I have to agree with Wolfgang. He has shown me this thread later and was very angry that some people stated that it's recent. The pictures from Paolo are sadly not very meaningful.
What's interesting is that the handle and scabbard from Gonzoadlers piece have the same overall appearance like this old one. Traditional style??

I have only ever seen this style of dress for kujang as contemporary (meaning post WWII). If push came to shove, without benefit of better photos or hands-on inspection, i would still have to say this dress form is not antique. My apologies to Wolfgang.

A. G. Maisey · 26th January 2021, 08:40 PM

David, I would tend to agree that this style of dress probably is not particularly old, but my personal opinion is that it could go back to perhaps a bit before WWII, maybe the 1920's.

This is opinion only, not something I am able to substantiate, but I have seen similar styles of dress on various other items of tosan aji that were supposedly, and looked to be, from the late colonial era, ie pre-WWII.

David · 26th January 2021, 10:55 PM

Thanks Alan, that's good to know.

Sajen · 26th January 2021, 11:51 PM

Yes, the 1920's is a time frame which is possible for the scabbard and handle from Paolo's kujang.
Wolfgang doesn't care anymore, he is deceased, But I am miffed since you don't believe my words!

A. G. Maisey · 27th January 2021, 05:18 AM

Detlef, I believe you absolutely, moreover I believe whoever gave you the information that you passed on, but what I believe is that Wolfgang, and the others who were responsible for this information did not provide you with information that they knew was incorrect.

This sort of thing is always a problem, because when we state an age for something that does not have some sort of very clear proof of age, all we are doing is expressing an opinion. Some opinions are perhaps better than others, but I doubt that any serious and well known personage such as Wolfgang was, would deliberately give an opinion that he had cause to believe was incorrect.

So Wolfgang believed in his estimate of age, and you believed him. I believe in my estimate, David believes in his estimate, and really, none of us can prove anything.

So why not just let precise age go and accept that we are looking at something with some age. Forget the "antique" idea, it is a fatuous concept at the best of times, just think in terms of era:- Late Colonial.

25th January 2021, 07:12 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	See also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=kujang Mine for comparison, it has a fairly large blade, about a foot long. Attached Images

26th January 2021, 08:40 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	David, I would tend to agree that this style of dress probably is not particularly old, but my personal opinion is that it could go back to perhaps a bit before WWII, maybe the 1920's. This is opinion only, not something I am able to substantiate, but I have seen similar styles of dress on various other items of tosan aji that were supposedly, and looked to be, from the late colonial era, ie pre-WWII.

26th January 2021, 10:55 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Thanks Alan, that's good to know.

26th January 2021, 11:51 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,415	Yes, the 1920's is a time frame which is possible for the scabbard and handle from Paolo's kujang. Wolfgang doesn't care anymore, he is deceased, But I am miffed since you don't believe my words!

27th January 2021, 05:18 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Detlef, I believe you absolutely, moreover I believe whoever gave you the information that you passed on, but what I believe is that Wolfgang, and the others who were responsible for this information did not provide you with information that they knew was incorrect. This sort of thing is always a problem, because when we state an age for something that does not have some sort of very clear proof of age, all we are doing is expressing an opinion. Some opinions are perhaps better than others, but I doubt that any serious and well known personage such as Wolfgang was, would deliberately give an opinion that he had cause to believe was incorrect. So Wolfgang believed in his estimate of age, and you believed him. I believe in my estimate, David believes in his estimate, and really, none of us can prove anything. So why not just let precise age go and accept that we are looking at something with some age. Forget the "antique" idea, it is a fatuous concept at the best of times, just think in terms of era:- Late Colonial.