Kujang for comments

A. G. Maisey · 22nd January 2021, 09:40 AM

Truth is only momentary.

See:- Samuel Arbesman

Mickey the Finn · 22nd January 2021, 12:46 PM

There are some who believe that a simple majority [no matter how ill-informed, misinformed, disinformed, wilfully blind, hopelessly benighted, or flat-out wrong that simple majority may be] shall rule [make decisions governing the whole group and/or "lord it over" the minority]. There are some who have resorted to force of arms to propagate this belief and/or system of governance among those who are differently minded.

On a different note: I've seen a few kujang kamerdikaan in "generally similar" dress. Some of the renditions I've seen and others which I own are not quite in the same league as the one shown in the original post.

Sajen · 23rd January 2021, 12:36 PM

For comparison an old one I've bought some time ago.

Gonzoadler · 23rd January 2021, 01:03 PM

The handle looks like from a javanese Keris.
But the Kujang is javanese, so it makes sense.
My new Kujang has no big similarities to a Keris.

Sajen · 23rd January 2021, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzoadler

The handle looks like from a javanese Keris
But the Kujang is javanese, so it makes sense.

Hello Gonzoadler,

It's only geographical Javanese, ethnograhical it's Sundanese.

Also when I've seen them sometimes with keris handles I doubt that is the original handle but since I've found it like this and that it seems that it was quite long with the blade it will stay with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzoadler

new Kujang has no big similarities to a Keris.

A kujang has nothing to do with a keris, so no surprise!

Regards,
Detlef

Gonzoadler · 23rd January 2021, 01:38 PM

Yes, geographical javanese. What I mean is that it explains this combination very well. That has nothing to do with the ethnographic origin.
Regards
Robin

Athanase · 23rd January 2021, 05:15 PM

2 Other old Kujang for comparaison one with 4 holes and one with 3 holes:

Old Kujang

Sajen · 24th January 2021, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey the Finn

On a different note: I've seen a few kujang kamerdikaan in "generally similar" dress. Some of the renditions I've seen and others which I own are not quite in the same league as the one shown in the original post.

In this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=kujang is shown one in an old/antique dress. I have handled this piece personally, it was sold to Paolo from Wolfgang Spielmann.

David · 25th January 2021, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

In this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=kujang is shown one in an old/antique dress. I have handled this piece personally, it was sold to Paolo from Wolfgang Spielmann.

hmmm....what leads you to believe this dress is antique? While it shows some age i would not have thought this to be pre-WWII, though certainly the blade is.

Sajen · 25th January 2021, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

hmmm....what leads you to believe this dress is antique? While it shows some age i would not have thought this to be pre-WWII, though certainly the blade is.

Hello David,

Like said, I've handled this piece before it went to Paolo, scabbard and handle has been painted and on all stick out places the wood was visible with a real nice patination, it was 2006/7 old when not antique, I remember this very well since I thought to this time to see a much younger piece but by close examination I have to agree with Wolfgang. He has shown me this thread later and was very angry that some people stated that it's recent. The pictures from Paolo are sadly not very meaningful.
What's interesting is that the handle and scabbard from Gonzoadlers piece have the same overall appearance like this old one. Traditional style??

kronckew · 25th January 2021, 06:12 PM

See also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=kujang

Mine for comparison, it has a fairly large blade, about a foot long.

David · 26th January 2021, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello David,

Like said, I've handled this piece before it went to Paolo, scabbard and handle has been painted and on all stick out places the wood was visible with a real nice patination, it was 2006/7 old when not antique, I remember this very well since I thought to this time to see a much younger piece but by close examination I have to agree with Wolfgang. He has shown me this thread later and was very angry that some people stated that it's recent. The pictures from Paolo are sadly not very meaningful.
What's interesting is that the handle and scabbard from Gonzoadlers piece have the same overall appearance like this old one. Traditional style??

I have only ever seen this style of dress for kujang as contemporary (meaning post WWII). If push came to shove, without benefit of better photos or hands-on inspection, i would still have to say this dress form is not antique. My apologies to Wolfgang.

A. G. Maisey · 26th January 2021, 07:40 PM

David, I would tend to agree that this style of dress probably is not particularly old, but my personal opinion is that it could go back to perhaps a bit before WWII, maybe the 1920's.

This is opinion only, not something I am able to substantiate, but I have seen similar styles of dress on various other items of tosan aji that were supposedly, and looked to be, from the late colonial era, ie pre-WWII.

23rd January 2021, 12:36 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,213	For comparison an old one I've bought some time ago. Attached Images

25th January 2021, 06:12 PM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	See also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=kujang Mine for comparison, it has a fairly large blade, about a foot long. Attached Images

22nd January 2021, 09:40 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Truth is only momentary. See:- Samuel Arbesman

22nd January 2021, 12:46 PM	#2
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	There are some who believe that a simple majority [no matter how ill-informed, misinformed, disinformed, wilfully blind, hopelessly benighted, or flat-out wrong that simple majority may be] shall rule [make decisions governing the whole group and/or "lord it over" the minority]. There are some who have resorted to force of arms to propagate this belief and/or system of governance among those who are differently minded. On a different note: I've seen a few kujang kamerdikaan in "generally similar" dress. Some of the renditions I've seen and others which I own are not quite in the same league as the one shown in the original post.

23rd January 2021, 01:03 PM	#4
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 255	The handle looks like from a javanese Keris. But the Kujang is javanese, so it makes sense. My new Kujang has no big similarities to a Keris.

23rd January 2021, 01:38 PM	#6
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 255	Yes, geographical javanese. What I mean is that it explains this combination very well. That has nothing to do with the ethnographic origin. Regards Robin

23rd January 2021, 05:15 PM	#7
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 420	2 Other old Kujang for comparaison one with 4 holes and one with 3 holes: Old Kujang

26th January 2021, 07:40 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	David, I would tend to agree that this style of dress probably is not particularly old, but my personal opinion is that it could go back to perhaps a bit before WWII, maybe the 1920's. This is opinion only, not something I am able to substantiate, but I have seen similar styles of dress on various other items of tosan aji that were supposedly, and looked to be, from the late colonial era, ie pre-WWII.