Chinese Gekken (half moon) pole arm

[fernando]

Philip, do you recall the key word/s to locate such example at the Met ?

[fernando]

Bruno, do you mean to say that the term 'Gekken' is the name of this weapon ?
Apparently this is (also ?) the name of some form of Fencing art.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gJWs4z5nfA



.

[bvieira]

Originally Posted by fernando

Bruno, do you mean to say that the term 'Gekken' is the name of this weapon ?
Apparently this is (also ?) the name of some form of Fencing art.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gJWs4z5nfA



.

Hello Fernando thats information i got from a book! the "Illustrated Encyclopedia of Weaponry" the book is available online at this url:

https://issuu.com/moseleyroadinc/doc...onry_lowres/20

From my understading gekken means "half moon" in chinese, but there is litle information about this in english, there must exist in chinese!

BV

[fernando]

Originally Posted by bvieira

Hello Fernando thats information i got from a book! the "Illustrated Encyclopedia of Weaponry" the book is available online at this url:

https://issuu.com/moseleyroadinc/doc...onry_lowres/20

From my understading gekken means "half moon" in chinese, but there is litle information about this in english, there must exist in chinese!

BV

I have looked into that link before i posted my question, Bruno. But as i saw plenty other links appointing to gekken being sword fencing, i realized the caption in the picture was wrong, as so often happens.
But i may be wrong, of course.


.

[bvieira]

Originally Posted by fernando

I have looked into that link before i posted my question, Bruno. But as i saw plenty other links appointing to gekken being sword fencing, i realized the caption in the picture was wrong, as so often happens.
But i may be wrong, of course.

I understand! unfortunately i dont know chinese so i'am unable to check and confirm the real name, sometimes like in portuguese some words have diferente meanings, so if that is the case it´s normal in a search engine to find the most well used meaning.

What i know from consulting some old chinese books and by watching the draws (since i dont read chinese) is that this is indeed a imperial army weapon that is reported to exist at least since the ming dinasty, ofcourse my example is not ming, its certain qing dinasty.

Regards,

BV

[fernando]

Originally Posted by bvieira

... What i know from consulting some old chinese books and by watching the draws (since i dont read chinese) is that this is indeed a imperial army weapon that is reported to exist at least since the ming dinasty, ofcourse my example is not ming, its certain qing dinasty...

Duly noted .

[bvieira]

In the "Wubei Zhi" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wubei_Zhi) there is a reference to this kind of weapon, but this book was done in 1621 and patterns and names change with time, but this is clear indication that the imperial army use this kind of weapons.

There is also a reference to the "spade", that as said earlier and pointed by Fernando in the monks version usualy has a shovel.

We can clearly see that these are 2 diferent weapons, one acts more like a cutter and other is a long pole arm, wich i believe has used to go against cavarly enemies, but this is a subject open to discussion and this is only my humble opinion by reading and seeing the very few documents i found.

BV

[fernando]

Those pictures are curious, as the Monks device is supposed to have a half moon in one end and a spade (shovel, pá in Portuguese) in the other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk%27s_spade.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Aag-GTFtI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKWHoVRKVM8

But then, i may be wrong again.


.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

Bruno, do you mean to say that the term 'Gekken' is the name of this weapon ?
Apparently this is (also ?) the name of some form of Fencing art.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gJWs4z5nfA



.

The term "gekken" is irrelevant to the weapon under discussion:
1. The word is Japanese and is literally "moon sword".
2. In Chinese the label "sword" is never applied to these weapons, they are usually regarded as a form of "spade" (chan ) and the common term is yuechan or moon spade.
2a. In Chinese usage, "sword"(jian) belong in their own class, double edged and straight. (the Japanese ken and Vietnamese kiem are the same word.) Curved single edged blades (like sabers) are in the class dao , (literally, knives). The Japanese word tô means the same thing. In the medieval dynasties there was some blurring as applied to some polearm heads, but curved blades of any kind were never jian.
3. The weapon itself is not characteristic of Japan's martial arts tradition though it may have seen limited use in Okinawa which was at one time closely linked to China politically and culturally.

So Fernando, I tend to agree that gekken probably relates to some Japanese system of fencing.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

... So Fernando, I tend to agree that gekken probably relates to some Japanese system of fencing...

Thank you for the enlightening, Filipe .

[Philip]

Originally Posted by fernando

Philip, do you recall the key word/s to locate such example at the Met ?

Nando, I first became aware of the example in the Met by way of Stone's Glossary... page 276, under the entry "Half Moon, Demilune" . So try Half Moon in the Met's online catalog search engine. If no-go, maybe "Medialuna" since the example is attributed to Spain.

[Ren Ren]

https://www.museodelprado.es/colecci...0-9ce631cd5382 In the upper left corner of the picture there is a very interesting Spanish or Neopolitan pole weapon.

[Philip]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

https://www.museodelprado.es/colecci...0-9ce631cd5382 In the upper left corner of the picture there is a very interesting Spanish or Neopolitan pole weapon.

Thank you, the Met example is practically identical to the one in this painting.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

https://www.museodelprado.es/colecci...0-9ce631cd5382 In the upper left corner of the picture there is a very interesting Spanish or Neopolitan pole weapon.

Good shot Ren Ren; the Spanish version of the Media Luna .
(COMBATE DE MUJERES, by José de Ribera, 1636).


.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

Nando, I first became aware of the example in the Met by way of Stone's Glossary... page 276, under the entry "Half Moon, Demilune" . So try Half Moon in the Met's online catalog search engine. If no-go, maybe "Medialuna" since the example is attributed to Spain.

It didn't work either way, Filipe; but it doesn'r matter so much at this stage. Muito obrigado, anyhow.