Help with translation - small pretty Kard

Kubur · 19th December 2020, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwiatek

Neither the words nor the numbers make any sense to me in either Arabic, Persian or Turkish

Are you sure that the three numerals separated by flowers are not a date? Missing the 1

kwiatek · 19th December 2020, 09:37 PM

Well, they are where you would expect the date to be on an inscription of this type and they could be conceivably be 2**7, but the middle digits do not resemble anything much and even if they did, taken as a whole this would not add up to anything that would make any sense in any of the calendars that we would be dealing with here. Added to the fact that the inscription itself does not appear to read properly, then I think we are talking about an inscription that has been copied by someone who did not understand what he was copying ...

Battara · 20th December 2020, 02:40 AM

Kwiatek, perhaps it is upside down:

Battara · 20th December 2020, 02:43 AM

Other thoughts:

1. it could be bad writing

2. could be totally talismanic

3. could it be in Bosnian instead of Turkish but using Arabic script?

kwiatek · 20th December 2020, 12:08 PM

Yes I had realized it was upside down.

I would be amazed if it was Bosnian, but I am prepared to be amazed if anyone can come up with a reading.

Could be talismanic, but you should still be able to read it or at least recognize what it is meant to be.

For sure it is bad hand-writing. Many artisans were illiterate, especially in the provinces. My suggestion is that this was copied from a text by an artisan who did not know what he was copying - there might just conceivably be the word الله or بالله („God“or „through God“) in there, though that is a long shot. Inscriptions on this type tend to be formulaic and the same ones come up again and again - someone may at some point recognize what text this was supposed to be, but at the moment it escapes me

motan · 20th December 2020, 09:21 PM

Hi Kwiatec,
I am not an expert on this subject, but I know that many bichaqs of this type were produced in various places in/for the Ottoman Empire. In fact, many of this construction - short "ears", all silver and floral design bichaqs and yatagans are sold as Greek, though Balkan, Bosnian etc. are also added to the description, to be on the safe side.
Moreover, this style of bichaqs were made in Europe for the Ottoman market (Italy and France, see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25013). I don't think yours is one, because the blade is an older wootz blade that has been re-mounted, but it makes sense that the koftgiri has been added during the mounting and that it has been written by someone who did not actually know Arabic. Some letters can definitely be identified as Arab letters, but others are not - so the whole does not make sense (not that I could read it if it did). So, my guess is that it is mounted in the 19th c. in Greece of other Balkan country for use by Ottoman soldiers or officials. I also posted a similar inscription from a what is described as Greek yatagan.

Gonzoadler · 22nd December 2020, 02:38 PM

Hello.
Sounds really plausible what you write here.
If the person who made the Koftgari was a Turk it would be strange, that he was'nt able to read arabic letters. A greek artisan is more likely.
Maybe the blade is older than the mountings, but Norman McCormick's dagger looks very similar. Therefore I'm not sure about that.
These Bichaqs made in France are a curious subject, I never heard about that.

Regards

20th December 2020, 02:40 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	Kwiatek, perhaps it is upside down: Attached Images

20th December 2020, 09:21 PM	#6
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Kwiatec, I am not an expert on this subject, but I know that many bichaqs of this type were produced in various places in/for the Ottoman Empire. In fact, many of this construction - short "ears", all silver and floral design bichaqs and yatagans are sold as Greek, though Balkan, Bosnian etc. are also added to the description, to be on the safe side. Moreover, this style of bichaqs were made in Europe for the Ottoman market (Italy and France, see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25013). I don't think yours is one, because the blade is an older wootz blade that has been re-mounted, but it makes sense that the koftgiri has been added during the mounting and that it has been written by someone who did not actually know Arabic. Some letters can definitely be identified as Arab letters, but others are not - so the whole does not make sense (not that I could read it if it did). So, my guess is that it is mounted in the 19th c. in Greece of other Balkan country for use by Ottoman soldiers or officials. I also posted a similar inscription from a what is described as Greek yatagan. Attached Images

19th December 2020, 09:37 PM	#2
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 156	Well, they are where you would expect the date to be on an inscription of this type and they could be conceivably be 2**7, but the middle digits do not resemble anything much and even if they did, taken as a whole this would not add up to anything that would make any sense in any of the calendars that we would be dealing with here. Added to the fact that the inscription itself does not appear to read properly, then I think we are talking about an inscription that has been copied by someone who did not understand what he was copying ...

20th December 2020, 02:43 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	Other thoughts: 1. it could be bad writing 2. could be totally talismanic 3. could it be in Bosnian instead of Turkish but using Arabic script?

20th December 2020, 12:08 PM	#5
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 156	Yes I had realized it was upside down. I would be amazed if it was Bosnian, but I am prepared to be amazed if anyone can come up with a reading. Could be talismanic, but you should still be able to read it or at least recognize what it is meant to be. For sure it is bad hand-writing. Many artisans were illiterate, especially in the provinces. My suggestion is that this was copied from a text by an artisan who did not know what he was copying - there might just conceivably be the word الله or بالله („God“or „through God“) in there, though that is a long shot. Inscriptions on this type tend to be formulaic and the same ones come up again and again - someone may at some point recognize what text this was supposed to be, but at the moment it escapes me

22nd December 2020, 02:38 PM	#7
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 273	Hello. Sounds really plausible what you write here. If the person who made the Koftgari was a Turk it would be strange, that he was'nt able to read arabic letters. A greek artisan is more likely. Maybe the blade is older than the mountings, but Norman McCormick's dagger looks very similar. Therefore I'm not sure about that. These Bichaqs made in France are a curious subject, I never heard about that. Regards