Indian sword with strange markings for comment

[Drabant1701]

Many thanks for your comments. It would be nice if the sword is actually older than I thought, often it is the other way around.
Anyways, I have new theory what the mark is. Ariel mentioned Rajput Arms and Armor by Elgood, and the chapter about umbrella marks. I have the book (very heavy, good read) so I read that part again. Elgood writes:

"In India the state umbrella was believed to be the abode of the goddess Lakshmi"

So I googled Lakshmi, she sits on a bed of lotus petals. Some times with an umbrella or/and a pointy hat.

I think the anchor shaped part of the sword mark is representing the bed of lotus. The rings with dots could represent lotus flowers. I added some pictures of paintings of the goddess I tried to find old examples. What do you think?

[ariel]

Very interesting. I never thought of that angle.
But .... where is Lakshmi?

[mariusgmioc]

Why umbrella?! And even less likely an Indian umbrella.

To me, it looks more like some sort of palm tree.

One can clearly distinguish the characteristic trunk and the soil with tall grass.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Why umbrella?! And even less likely an Indian umbrella.

To me, it looks more like some sort of palm tree.

One can clearly distinguish the characteristic trunk and the soil with tall grass.

Interesting suggestion, and well illustrates the 'Rohrshach' circumstance when markings become highly stylized or poorly executed, or both.
As Ariel has noted, this particular 'umbrella' is a bit 'overembellished' as would be the case when an artisan is striving for ultra imbuement.

There are cases of Indian blades where the 'sickle marks' as often seen on blades in Northwest India, are used in linear fashion lining the entire blade along the back (not spine). There are many cases of other markings being imitated in various interpretations.

The case of the 'Passau wolf' is a good one concerning 'stylization' and these representations of the 'wolf' are seen in dramation variation, some virtually just chops in a pattern which barely resembles a wolf or any particular quadruped. Oakeshott once noted that these were seen as a unicorn in some cases, and it seems other interpretations are known as well.

With the numbers on the blade, it does seem these are 'stippled' which would concur with the method of numbering or administrative inventory used by the Bikaner armory iin Rajasthan. These were however in Devanagari or other dialectic Indian script. Whatever the case, this is hardly an aesthetic addition, and further suggests this was probably a combat oriented weapon rather than court intended accoutrement.

[Jim McDougall]

Drabant, we crossed posts, and just read your excellent observations, very well explained.

[Drabant1701]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Interesting suggestion, and well illustrates the 'Rohrshach' circumstance when markings become highly stylized or poorly executed, or both.
As Ariel has noted, this particular 'umbrella' is a bit 'overembellished' as would be the case when an artisan is striving for ultra imbuement.

There are cases of Indian blades where the 'sickle marks' as often seen on blades in Northwest India, are used in linear fashion lining the entire blade along the back (not spine). There are many cases of other markings being imitated in various interpretations.

The case of the 'Passau wolf' is a good one concerning 'stylization' and these representations of the 'wolf' are seen in dramation variation, some virtually just chops in a pattern which barely resembles a wolf or any particular quadruped. Oakeshott once noted that these were seen as a unicorn in some cases, and it seems other interpretations are known as well.

With the numbers on the blade, it does seem these are 'stippled' which would concur with the method of numbering or administrative inventory used by the Bikaner armory iin Rajasthan. These were however in Devanagari or other dialectic Indian script. Whatever the case, this is hardly an aesthetic addition, and further suggests this was probably a combat oriented weapon rather than court intended accoutrement.

Well put Jim. A similar example to the wolf and umbrella is the Assad Allah Lion. On many Qajar swords you know it's a lion mark because its always a lion mark. For someone not knowing what they are looking for it may as well be a dog, a pig or hippopotamus.

I was doing some more reading in the umbrella thread on the forum.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=umbrella

There is some discussion about the tree of life in connection to the umbrella in south Borneo. So there might be a tree in there after all.

The thread also has the photo below. I am not claiming it to be similar to the mark on my sword. It does however have a half circle+ at the bottom. So there are other umbrellas out there with unorthodox bottoms.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Drabant1701

Well put Jim. A similar example to the wolf and umbrella is the Assad Allah Lion. On many Qajar swords you know it's a lion mark because its always a lion mark. For someone not knowing what they are looking for it may as well be a dog, a pig or hippopotamus.

I was doing some more reading in the umbrella thread on the forum.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=umbrella

There is some discussion about the tree of life in connection to the umbrella in south Borneo. So there might be a tree in there after all.

The thread also has the photo below. I am not claiming it to be similar to the mark on my sword. It does however have a half circle+ at the bottom. So there are other umbrellas out there with unorthodox bottoms.

Excellent example! This is clearly a Mughal application and reminds me of similar cases with Tipu Sultan. What this is would be the Mughal 'umbrella' incorporated into the familiar cross and orb symbol often used on German blades, virtually a hybrid symbol denoting quality and status.

In some cases Tipu amalgamated his own personal symbol with that of the East India Co. in that same sense, ironically even though they were enemies. In some way it seems possibly that this was a kind of metaphor as I think it was superimposed, as if showing him overcoming the EIC, but of course this may be reading into it too much.

The umbrella symbol as a regal indicator pretty much goes back into ancient times, and was well known in Asia. With the strong Persian influence in Mughal courts, and of course such influences which came to them from the east, it stands to reason the notion filtered into Mughal symbolism.

The Assad Adullah lion was used on Persian trade blades, and was so used to afford interpretation or awareness to basically illiterate or uninitiated buyers, as a pictogram rather than wording as usually in cartouche. While typically in the Islamic context, the pictograph would be readily interpreted as the "Lion of God" , in other cultures using the blades, obviously other versions of perception might occur.

The hippopatamus note I think comes from a reference (Reed, 1987) referring to a Sudanese chieftain who was looking at a Passau Wolf on a blade for a kaskara and claimed that was what it was.

Again, an outstanding tegha example! and all the more so with these great markings. These are not commonly seen as it is, and this with Rajput character (the Hindu basket hilt) and Mughal type markings makes it remarkable in my opinion.

[ariel]

Drabant,
I was wrong about the issue of " cutting through cloth armour". In the excellent review of Deccani swords by Robert Elgood ( " Sultans of the South") there is a photo of a tegha with identical handle , only very rich and gilt all over.
It has a wide D-guard, curved baluster and the " wings" at the knuckleguard. It is attributed by R.E. to Deccan, 17th century and mentions cloth armour.
I shall look around and send you the paper.
The best way is if you give me your e-mail address.
You can use PM.

[Drabant1701]

Originally Posted by ariel

Very interesting. I never thought of that angle.
But .... where is Lakshmi?

Considering the quality of the engraving the carver probably thought carving the goddess was outside his skills set. Kind of like the cross of Christianity, its easy carving a cross but try carving Jesus Christ on it. It's not a picture of the goddess but a symbol in her place.

Maybe the mark has nothing to do with the royal umbrella, and its only purpose was to aid the swords wielder with good fortune in battle.

Marius
I will entertain any idea, and it sure looks like the trunk of a palm tree.
However If you look at picture below you will see that i have highlighted the dots below the shade that symbolize suspended pearls. These are a common trait on umbrellas on Indian swords. The handle represents the gods as the center of the universe. And as you can see on the far superior umbrella that I put next to mine that one also has a palm tree for a handle.

I realize that the mark could look like many things but in the context that its in what is a resemble assumption. There are many examples of umbrellas on Indian swords. There is also insentive to put them there both cultural and for status reasons.

I have looked at the palm tree as a possibility but can find no examples of trees carved into swords from this period. The palm branch can be a symbol of victory, so I would not completely rule out putting palm trees on swords.