Question marks on a supposedly Russian Yataghan with Shashka grip and “bulat” blade?

ariel · 19th November 2020, 06:53 AM

Agree with Kubur: the blade is not Russian, but +/- Central Asia / India.

Anosov, alleged re-discoverer of Bulat, had some blades made. All of them were rather pitiful renditions of Shams, even though he claimed to reproduce tabans and khorasans. He got the instruction how to make Bulat ingots, but the mastery of forging them was well beyond him. Russian metallurgists and historians darkly comment to this day that there are still unseen examples in Russian museums, but that they are so secret that cannot be shown. At the very least Anosov is credited with a discovery that Bulat is an alloy of iron and carbon, nothing else. But even that is not true: Faraday knew it years earlier and tried to simplify the process by adding various other element .

After Anosov’s death, his former Zlatoust colleagues got hold of his written recipes and tried to create Bulat ingots. Nothing came out of it.

The story of Russian Bulat is fascinating and I think from time to time to publish it: it is a detective story, with industrial espionage, carefully choreographed publications, passion to be the “ first”, attempts of obtaining confirmation of the “ first- ness” from the foreigners, and a final hiding of the methodology so that nobody steals it. Science at its most human and worst:-)))

Richard R. · 19th November 2020, 08:40 AM

What about this Yataghan wit Damascus-Pattern, also Russian or +/- Central Asia or Indian?

ariel · 20th November 2020, 03:28 PM

Why Russian? Markings? Inscriptions?
I am unaware of any old Russian Bulat ( wootz) blades with a pattern more sophisticated than shams , and even those are rarer than hen’s teeth.
Contemporary Russian smiths can produce only short knives( except for Zaqro Nonikashvili, but he is from Georgia).
I have seen some old composites with Oriental blades and Russian decorative additions.

Richard R. · 21st November 2020, 07:28 PM

This first shown Yataghan has been described by the auctions houses Bonham London and Auctions Imperial as follows:

“A RUSSIAN YATAGHAN, 19TH CENTURY:
With watered recurved single-edged blade, and characteristic 'eared' ebony grip secured by two transverse brass pins, in original wooden scabbard covered in red velvet (worn) with iron locket and chape each etched with designs of symmetrical foliage on the outside. Overall length is 33.5 inches - Blade length is 26.5 inches.”

“AN IMPERIAL RUSSIAN SABER SHASHKA:
A very rare example, typical of Zlatoust Arms Factory special order work for officers during the Caucasian Wars. The hilt carved of a single section of black horn, the gently recurved, single-edged blade forged of fine Russian bulat wootz steel as developed by Pavel Anosov at Zlatoust in 1838. The wooden scabbard covered in red velvet with gilt braid, the steel mounts etched in motifs characteristic of Zlatoust. Mid-19th century. Some wear to mounts. Overall length 84.8 cm, blade 67.5 cm. Officers serving in the Caucasus often acquired or had local weapons copied. This example combines the hilt of a shashka with a blade of yataghan form, a type encountered in Georgia; however with refinements which improve upon the original by allowing it to be used, not only for cutting, but for the thrust so popular among Russian soldiers.”

What about the scabbard? For me it doesn’t look Indian.

Kubur · 21st November 2020, 07:45 PM

The first one has a North Indian scabbard or with Afghan fittings.
I can't say nothing about the second one as you showed us only the blade...

About Russian,Russian collectors have money, a lot.
Everything labeled Russian will sell high.

mariusgmioc · 22nd November 2020, 09:09 AM

Hello,
While it is very difficult to judge from the photos, the blade of the first example appears to be pattern welded and not wootz. And even if it is wootz, it definitely does not have the fine watering of antique wootz but looks more like modern sham.

PS: I know of a Russian blacksmith who can make some pattern welded blades with watering extremely similar to wootz. I have seen one of his steels in a sword of Gotscha Lagidse and I was quite convinced it was wootz.

ariel · 22nd November 2020, 09:52 PM

I have pics of 3 Anosov’s blades: all Shams, from barely existent to real, to so coarse that it could have been a refined steel.
I also have a recording of a very fresh Russian conference in the Kremlin Museum dedicated to the history of weapons. There was a presentation of chemical analysis of 15 allegedly “ Bulat” blades of 19 century, including one allegedly Anosov’s blade , but it was not actually shown.

To this day they do not differentiate between wootz and mechanical Damascus and all blades are HYPOeutectoid ( carbon<< 0.8% i.e. not wootz). Not a single “wootz” blade seems to have a wootz pattern.

Something strange goes on there.....

19th November 2020, 08:40 AM	#2
Richard R. Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 26	What about this Yataghan wit Damascus-Pattern, also Russian or +/- Central Asia or Indian? Attached Images

21st November 2020, 07:45 PM	#5
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	The first one has a North Indian scabbard or with Afghan fittings. I can't say nothing about the second one as you showed us only the blade... About Russian,Russian collectors have money, a lot. Everything labeled Russian will sell high. Attached Images Last edited by Kubur; 22nd November 2020 at 10:59 AM.

22nd November 2020, 09:09 AM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,912	Hello, While it is very difficult to judge from the photos, the blade of the first example appears to be pattern welded and not wootz. And even if it is wootz, it definitely does not have the fine watering of antique wootz but looks more like modern sham. PS: I know of a Russian blacksmith who can make some pattern welded blades with watering extremely similar to wootz. I have seen one of his steels in a sword of Gotscha Lagidse and I was quite convinced it was wootz. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 22nd November 2020 at 11:14 AM.

22nd November 2020, 09:52 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have pics of 3 Anosov’s blades: all Shams, from barely existent to real, to so coarse that it could have been a refined steel. I also have a recording of a very fresh Russian conference in the Kremlin Museum dedicated to the history of weapons. There was a presentation of chemical analysis of 15 allegedly “ Bulat” blades of 19 century, including one allegedly Anosov’s blade , but it was not actually shown. To this day they do not differentiate between wootz and mechanical Damascus and all blades are HYPOeutectoid ( carbon<< 0.8% i.e. not wootz). Not a single “wootz” blade seems to have a wootz pattern. Something strange goes on there..... Last edited by ariel; 23rd November 2020 at 06:10 AM.

19th November 2020, 06:53 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Agree with Kubur: the blade is not Russian, but +/- Central Asia / India. Anosov, alleged re-discoverer of Bulat, had some blades made. All of them were rather pitiful renditions of Shams, even though he claimed to reproduce tabans and khorasans. He got the instruction how to make Bulat ingots, but the mastery of forging them was well beyond him. Russian metallurgists and historians darkly comment to this day that there are still unseen examples in Russian museums, but that they are so secret that cannot be shown. At the very least Anosov is credited with a discovery that Bulat is an alloy of iron and carbon, nothing else. But even that is not true: Faraday knew it years earlier and tried to simplify the process by adding various other element . After Anosov’s death, his former Zlatoust colleagues got hold of his written recipes and tried to create Bulat ingots. Nothing came out of it. The story of Russian Bulat is fascinating and I think from time to time to publish it: it is a detective story, with industrial espionage, carefully choreographed publications, passion to be the “ first”, attempts of obtaining confirmation of the “ first- ness” from the foreigners, and a final hiding of the methodology so that nobody steals it. Science at its most human and worst:-)))

20th November 2020, 03:28 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Why Russian? Markings? Inscriptions? I am unaware of any old Russian Bulat ( wootz) blades with a pattern more sophisticated than shams , and even those are rarer than hen’s teeth. Contemporary Russian smiths can produce only short knives( except for Zaqro Nonikashvili, but he is from Georgia). I have seen some old composites with Oriental blades and Russian decorative additions.

21st November 2020, 07:28 PM	#4
Richard R. Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 26	This first shown Yataghan has been described by the auctions houses Bonham London and Auctions Imperial as follows: “A RUSSIAN YATAGHAN, 19TH CENTURY: With watered recurved single-edged blade, and characteristic 'eared' ebony grip secured by two transverse brass pins, in original wooden scabbard covered in red velvet (worn) with iron locket and chape each etched with designs of symmetrical foliage on the outside. Overall length is 33.5 inches - Blade length is 26.5 inches.” “AN IMPERIAL RUSSIAN SABER SHASHKA: A very rare example, typical of Zlatoust Arms Factory special order work for officers during the Caucasian Wars. The hilt carved of a single section of black horn, the gently recurved, single-edged blade forged of fine Russian bulat wootz steel as developed by Pavel Anosov at Zlatoust in 1838. The wooden scabbard covered in red velvet with gilt braid, the steel mounts etched in motifs characteristic of Zlatoust. Mid-19th century. Some wear to mounts. Overall length 84.8 cm, blade 67.5 cm. Officers serving in the Caucasus often acquired or had local weapons copied. This example combines the hilt of a shashka with a blade of yataghan form, a type encountered in Georgia; however with refinements which improve upon the original by allowing it to be used, not only for cutting, but for the thrust so popular among Russian soldiers.” What about the scabbard? For me it doesn’t look Indian.