eBay keris... are these Kraton pieces?

BluErf · 21st May 2006, 05:56 AM

In my opinion, there are indeed many kerises out there (I'm not referring to the kerises in discussion in this thread) that are being offered as kraton pieces. Whether they are real or not needs careful discernment, and sometimes a leap of faith.

I have some questions which I hope can be answered:

1. Are kraton kerises referring to the royal pusaka, or simply any keris that may be used/worn by a person working in the kraton, including the guards?

2. Must kraton kerises necessarily come out of the kraton armoury, or is it a reference to a certain level of quality?

3. Are kraton kerises made by empus, or could they have been kerises owned by founding sultans/sunans of the kraton, which may not have been made by an empu?

4. Can kraton pieces be 'inducted'? i.e. purchased from somebody and added to the armoury? If so, how long must it be inside the kraton to be considered a kraton piece?

5. "Rejected" kerises made by empu associated to a kraton - are these kraton pieces?

And also, just to share - there is a book published by the Yogya kraton. It has good pictures of the principal keris attributed to the Sultan, the crown prince, the Eldest son and the chief minister. The Sultan's own keris is a rather 'unspectacular' straight keris with a little bit of kinatah work and a combong. And I have seen the keris blade of the super gold Bugis keris on the cover of "Court Arts of Indonesia". That is a "normal-looking" 7-waved Bugis blade. No doubt a good tough blade with good form, but nothing fancy that we would imagine.

So what does it mean to be a kraton piece? And what are the conceptions that we have of the way a kraton piece must look?

Alam Shah · 21st May 2006, 10:32 AM

Hmm...interesting question BluErf. What's the title of the book?

Unfortunately, I don't have the answers.

Perhaps someone like Boedhi Adhitya, Marto Suwignyo or perhap A.G. Maisey would be able to assist or answer these questions.

Pangeran Datu · 21st May 2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hmm...interesting question BluErf. What's the title of the book?

Unfortunately, I don't have the answers.

Perhaps someone like Boedhi Adhitya, Marto Suwignyo or perhap A.G. Maisey would be able to assist or answer these questions.

Hello again Alam shah,
How long is a piece of string? ...

Take your pick... the definition of a kraton piece depends on whom you speak to. It can mean pieces owned by previous and current rulers..... it can mean pieces owned by previous and current kraton personnel......it can mean pieces commissioned by the ruler or kraton....In any case, I'd be surprised if they weren't made by an Empu instead of a panday ( here I make a distinction between Empu and panday, as many people in Java do). As well, it can mean just normal pieces.. or it can mean pieces with tuah or pusakas.... Or any combination of the above and more

In my opinion, the Holy Grail is the pusaka tuah that have traditionally been thrown away or given away for safe-keeping by forebears, prior to their demise.Believe me, they DO exist

Ko nie bijak laa.

Sepang · 21st May 2006, 12:43 PM

MANY SELLER NEED TO GET PROFIT BY TELLING NOT TRUE.
SAID THAT A KRIS WHICH THEY OFFERED IS CAME FROM ROYAL PALACE, BUT ACTUALLY NOT

JUST BECAUSE THE PENDOK WHICH USED HAS ROYAL SYMBOL THAN IT CAN SAID AS ROYAL KRISS ?
..............
WE KNEW EACH OTHER ABOUT TRICK LIKE THIS HUH ? DID YOU, DEOCON ?

doecon · 21st May 2006, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sepang

MANY SELLER NEED TO GET PROFIT BY TELLING NOT TRUE.
..............
WE KNEW EACH OTHER ABOUT TRICK LIKE THIS HUH ? DID YOU, DEOCON ?

You obviously didn't read the add, did you?
I don't think we met, so we dont know eachother, nor knew eachother.
In case you mean that some seller use tricks to sell I agree, they probably need to do so, I don't.

Maybe you are one of the sellers who is upset as well because of our 1 buck policy? Are you?

Ps its Doecon, not deocon.

nechesh · 21st May 2006, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

In my opinion, the Holy Grail is the pusaka tuah that have traditionally been thrown away or given away for safe-keeping by forebears, prior to their demise.

Obviously you have not read or seen the Da Vinci Code.

Alam Shah · 21st May 2006, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Obviously you have not read or seen the Da Vinci Code.

I had...

Interesting theories... "the Holy Grail is not a chalice... but..."

doecon · 21st May 2006, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hmm...interesting question BluErf. What's the title of the book?

Unfortunately, I don't have the answers.

Perhaps someone like Boedhi Adhitya, Marto Suwignyo or perhap A.G. Maisey would be able to assist or answer these questions.

Alam, with all respect. Before you seem to be able to conclude that the keris mentioned are not Keraton keris. But when asked about the criteria to do so you have no clue?

...

I'm starting to wonder what is the real purpose of your question

Have a nice day.

nechesh · 21st May 2006, 04:01 PM

Doecon and Sepang, i hope you don't think that this forum is the proper place to get into a dealer's war. I would hate to see this thread digress into such child's play.
As Alam Shah is not a dealer i suspect you may have the wrong impression of what his purpose in starting this thread was. It seems pretty obvious to me and it has brought up some seriously interesting questions which i would love to see answered before you guys start throwing stones and get this thread locked.
I have my own suspicions as to what actually qualifies a keris as a kraton piece (as i am sure Alam Shah does as well), but i also would love to hear what others with more experience with the kraton itself might have to say on the subject.
I will, however, go out on a limb here by saying that i seriously doubt the keris in question here have had anything to do with the kraton by any of the criteria that BluErf brings up. Can't say why......just a feeling i guess.

Rick · 21st May 2006, 04:04 PM

Thank you David .
I suggest someone start a "What Constitutes A Kraton Keris thread because I am closing this one .

21st May 2006, 10:32 AM	#2
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	book title... Hmm...interesting question BluErf. What's the title of the book? Unfortunately, I don't have the answers. Perhaps someone like Boedhi Adhitya, Marto Suwignyo or perhap A.G. Maisey would be able to assist or answer these questions.

21st May 2006, 05:56 AM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	In my opinion, there are indeed many kerises out there (I'm not referring to the kerises in discussion in this thread) that are being offered as kraton pieces. Whether they are real or not needs careful discernment, and sometimes a leap of faith. I have some questions which I hope can be answered: 1. Are kraton kerises referring to the royal pusaka, or simply any keris that may be used/worn by a person working in the kraton, including the guards? 2. Must kraton kerises necessarily come out of the kraton armoury, or is it a reference to a certain level of quality? 3. Are kraton kerises made by empus, or could they have been kerises owned by founding sultans/sunans of the kraton, which may not have been made by an empu? 4. Can kraton pieces be 'inducted'? i.e. purchased from somebody and added to the armoury? If so, how long must it be inside the kraton to be considered a kraton piece? 5. "Rejected" kerises made by empu associated to a kraton - are these kraton pieces? And also, just to share - there is a book published by the Yogya kraton. It has good pictures of the principal keris attributed to the Sultan, the crown prince, the Eldest son and the chief minister. The Sultan's own keris is a rather 'unspectacular' straight keris with a little bit of kinatah work and a combong. And I have seen the keris blade of the super gold Bugis keris on the cover of "Court Arts of Indonesia". That is a "normal-looking" 7-waved Bugis blade. No doubt a good tough blade with good form, but nothing fancy that we would imagine. So what does it mean to be a kraton piece? And what are the conceptions that we have of the way a kraton piece must look?

21st May 2006, 12:43 PM	#4
Sepang Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 33	MANY SELLER NEED TO GET PROFIT BY TELLING NOT TRUE. SAID THAT A KRIS WHICH THEY OFFERED IS CAME FROM ROYAL PALACE, BUT ACTUALLY NOT JUST BECAUSE THE PENDOK WHICH USED HAS ROYAL SYMBOL THAN IT CAN SAID AS ROYAL KRISS ? .............. WE KNEW EACH OTHER ABOUT TRICK LIKE THIS HUH ? DID YOU, DEOCON ?

21st May 2006, 04:01 PM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Doecon and Sepang, i hope you don't think that this forum is the proper place to get into a dealer's war. I would hate to see this thread digress into such child's play. As Alam Shah is not a dealer i suspect you may have the wrong impression of what his purpose in starting this thread was. It seems pretty obvious to me and it has brought up some seriously interesting questions which i would love to see answered before you guys start throwing stones and get this thread locked. I have my own suspicions as to what actually qualifies a keris as a kraton piece (as i am sure Alam Shah does as well), but i also would love to hear what others with more experience with the kraton itself might have to say on the subject. I will, however, go out on a limb here by saying that i seriously doubt the keris in question here have had anything to do with the kraton by any of the criteria that BluErf brings up. Can't say why......just a feeling i guess.

21st May 2006, 04:04 PM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Thank you David . I suggest someone start a "What Constitutes A Kraton Keris thread because I am closing this one .