Kalkan shield

Battara · 10th October 2020, 07:47 AM

Oh I see - I missed that. Thanks.

So the so-called Ottoman "Parade" shields are actually run of the mill Ottoman shields...............

Kubur · 10th October 2020, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Oh I see - I missed that. Thanks.

So the so-called Ottoman "Parade" shields are actually run of the mill Ottoman shields...............

Hi!
Where are the parade shields?

Battara · 12th October 2020, 03:10 AM

Yeah they always call these "parade" shields. Not sure why........

Kubur · 12th October 2020, 06:52 AM

I can tell you why they call them parade.
Because they are colourful and look fragile.
If all the shields made of straw, wood or leather were parade shields, we won't have a lot of battle shields...
The straw does the job, it will minimize the impact. Actualy it's the opposite the fancy full steel Persian and Indian shields were the parade shields.
For the colour it's the same, our world is grey, the past was colourful.

Plus I doubt that all the Ottoman shields captured during the siege of Vienna were parade shields.

Philip · 12th October 2020, 10:53 PM

Seems to me that something that is both ornamented yet well-designed and crafted of proper materials can function just well on the battlefield as at a ceremonial gala or public display. Look at the late-medieval and Renaissance pavises from Europe, brightly emblazoned with the heraldic emblems relevant to the units which used them. if they were meant just for show by virtue of their colorful décor, they wouldn't have been made so massively (to withstand the force of longbow and crossbow projectiles).

So what are "proper materials" ?

Spirally-wound and tightly bound rattan may seem flimsy to us, but keep in mind that it was widely used in cultures where the material was available or could be obtained through trade, and where cutting and projectile weapons were well-developed. Think most of SE Asia, Tibet, China, etc. I recall reading somewhere that Malay rattan shields were capable of standing up to blows from European naval cutlasses. And note this passage from Stone's Glossary...(p 557) :

"Some of the shields that appear light and weak were much more effective at the time they were made than they appear to us with our knowledge of present-day weapons. Walllace, p 360, speaking of the Aru Islander's shields, says, 'Oner of the war shields was brought to us to look at. It was made of rattan and covered with cotton twist, so as to be both light, strong, and very tough. I should think it would resist an ordinary bullet' [italics are the author's]."

One last thought -- in armies in which commanders often purchased their own equipment, the natural preference for high quality often included the desire for added decoration, and those were the days in which they typically led troops into the thick of the fray.

qusko · 13th October 2020, 07:00 PM

Hi,

I have attached kalkan from polish army museum in Warsaw. It's marked as battle shield (less decorated then parade one)
http://www.muzeumwp.pl/emwpaedia/kalkan-bojowy.php

I think we have more parade kalkans as they were expensive and not used in fight. When I say parade, it should have precious stones / umbo made with gold, ...
http://www.muzeumwp.pl/emwpaedia/kal...y-pancerny.php

Still all colorful versions with steel parts are made for 'normal use'

12th October 2020, 10:53 PM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	made for the battlefield or parade field? Seems to me that something that is both ornamented yet well-designed and crafted of proper materials can function just well on the battlefield as at a ceremonial gala or public display. Look at the late-medieval and Renaissance pavises from Europe, brightly emblazoned with the heraldic emblems relevant to the units which used them. if they were meant just for show by virtue of their colorful décor, they wouldn't have been made so massively (to withstand the force of longbow and crossbow projectiles). So what are "proper materials" ? Spirally-wound and tightly bound rattan may seem flimsy to us, but keep in mind that it was widely used in cultures where the material was available or could be obtained through trade, and where cutting and projectile weapons were well-developed. Think most of SE Asia, Tibet, China, etc. I recall reading somewhere that Malay rattan shields were capable of standing up to blows from European naval cutlasses. And note this passage from Stone's Glossary...(p 557) : "Some of the shields that appear light and weak were much more effective at the time they were made than they appear to us with our knowledge of present-day weapons. Walllace, p 360, speaking of the Aru Islander's shields, says, 'Oner of the war shields was brought to us to look at. It was made of rattan and covered with cotton twist, so as to be both light, strong, and very tough. I should think it would resist an ordinary bullet' [italics are the author's]." One last thought -- in armies in which commanders often purchased their own equipment, the natural preference for high quality often included the desire for added decoration, and those were the days in which they typically led troops into the thick of the fray. Last edited by Philip; 12th October 2020 at 11:01 PM. Reason: biblio correction

13th October 2020, 07:00 PM	#6
qusko Member Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 62	Hi, I have attached kalkan from polish army museum in Warsaw. It's marked as battle shield (less decorated then parade one) http://www.muzeumwp.pl/emwpaedia/kalkan-bojowy.php I think we have more parade kalkans as they were expensive and not used in fight. When I say parade, it should have precious stones / umbo made with gold, ... http://www.muzeumwp.pl/emwpaedia/kal...y-pancerny.php Still all colorful versions with steel parts are made for 'normal use' Attached Images

10th October 2020, 07:47 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Oh I see - I missed that. Thanks. So the so-called Ottoman "Parade" shields are actually run of the mill Ottoman shields...............

12th October 2020, 03:10 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Yeah they always call these "parade" shields. Not sure why........

12th October 2020, 06:52 AM	#4
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I can tell you why they call them parade. Because they are colourful and look fragile. If all the shields made of straw, wood or leather were parade shields, we won't have a lot of battle shields... The straw does the job, it will minimize the impact. Actualy it's the opposite the fancy full steel Persian and Indian shields were the parade shields. For the colour it's the same, our world is grey, the past was colourful. Plus I doubt that all the Ottoman shields captured during the siege of Vienna were parade shields.