Austrian Zischägge/lobsterpot helmet

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Raf

The vendor of a similar helmet provides the following explantation

Type used in the Thirty Years' War and again in the English Civil Wars. This example with distinct evidence of that double service. Form commonly referred to as "Dutch" with ribbed one piece skull, rolled edge visor and cheek pieces, sliding nasal bar and four lame neck guard. Sound and complete with fragmentary line bands. The tail with the center leather secured by domed rivets which pierce the double plate overlap and immobilize the articulation of the neck protection. That modification clearly made during the working life of the helmet and the leather, rivets and gussets showing commensurate age. It is well established that large numbers of lobstertail helmets used in the English Civil Wars of 1642-51 were Thirty Years' War surplus. They were used by Parliamentarians who, unlike the King, had few sources of domestic origin. "Pot helmets" of the period were made with both articulated and non-articulated neck defenses. Both had their proponents and arguments. This helmet, likely as part of a group purchase was modified to respond to the difference in warfare between the two conflicts. Specifically, the Thirty Years' War was a war of sieges while the English Civil Wars were fought in the fields.

Anyone convinced ?

I take vendor comments with a pinch of salt, but like to be openminded and keen to enlighten myself.

As far as I’m aware all Zischägge I have seen with laminated neck guards had their plates riveted together where overlapping, which limit the possible movement. This is not a problem as I struggle to see why you would want a fully articulated neck guard as this is not a joint.

Some Zischägge have leather straps attached with rivets around the sides and through the middle of the laminated neck guard. I think this is generally believed to have held the lining in place, but I guess it could also have enabled full articulation of the laminated neck guard if the lames were originally only riveted to the leather straps and not each other. But I’m not convinced unless someone can show this was the case.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

...As far as I’m aware all Zischägge I have seen with laminated neck guards had their plates riveted together where overlapping, which limit the possible movement. This is not a problem as I struggle to see why you would want a fully articulated neck guard as this is not a joint...

Some say this is an option to make a difference between wealthy or ranked owners and ordinary troopers equipment. I have even seen (here ?) a neck guard in one entire piece but with pronounced canelures, "possibly" to visually pretend articulated features

Originally Posted by Victrix

...Some Zischägge have leather straps attached with rivets around the sides and through the middle of the laminated neck guard. I think this is generally believed to have held the lining in place, but I guess it could also have enabled full articulation of the laminated neck guard if the lames were originally only riveted to the leather straps and not each other. But I’m not convinced unless someone can show this was the case...

Maybe i am talking nonsense but, allow me to show the lower neck guard of a close helmet, just for the sake of how the lames do articulate; not so much, but they do articulate indeed, as i have personally checked. The side rivets are 'spaced' to allow for pivoting of the leather controlled center .


.

[Raf]

Thank you Fernando for making an important point. The center leather strap , if present is their to help control the articulation of the lames. The rivits securing the leather are not the same as the decorative dome headed rivits on the outside of the lames. These are normally quite high up towards the top edge of the lame often in conjunction with a central peak to the lame . Since the lames have to overlap if the dome headed rivits were used to secure the leather strap then they would have to pass through both overlapping lames in which case they would not articulate. Their are plenty of examples of Zischagges with single piece tails embossed to simulate articulated tails. These are normally rigidly fixed to the helmet and shorter so as not to interfere with the movement of the head. Longer tails are articulated for the same reason. That is the longer tail provides better protection to the neck without inhibiting movement.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Raf

Thank you Fernando for making an important point. The center leather strap , if present is their to help control the articulation of the lames. The rivits securing the leather are not the same as the decorative dome headed rivits on the outside of the lames. These are normally quite high up towards the top edge of the lame often in conjunction with a central peak to the lame . Since the lames have to overlap if the dome headed rivits were used to secure the leather strap then they would have to pass through both overlapping lames in which case they would not articulate. Their are plenty of examples of Zischagges with single piece tails embossed to simulate articulated tails. These are normally rigidly fixed to the helmet and shorter so as not to interfere with the movement of the head. Longer tails are articulated for the same reason. That is the longer tail provides better protection to the neck without inhibiting movement.

Thank you for clarifying this Raf. Can you confirm if the overlapping lames are riveted together at the far left and right sides or are they just hanging free on the leather straps? The attached first two pictures seem to show that the lames are riveted together at the far sides. Do they use tracking rivet holes to allow extra movement?

Can you show how much movement these articulating lames allowed in the lobstertail neck guard? Do you think many lobstertail neck guards were immobilized in more recent times for restoration purposes?

The last picture shows a solid plate neck guard with simulated lames which nevertheless also has leather straps on the inside even though it doesn’t have any lames to articulate.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

Some say this is an option to make a difference between wealthy or ranked owners and ordinary troopers equipment. I have even seen (here ?) a neck guard in one entire piece but with pronounced canelures, "possibly" to visually pretend articulated features
.

Yes, I think the Zischägge with solid plate neck guards (ridged to imitate lames) are munitions grade. The heavier ones are probably siege helmets.

Then you have the Zischägge with laminated neck defences (”lobstertail”) which also come in many shapes and forms. Some are more basic and were probably issued to troopers, or stored in armouries like Graz. Some, for princes and commanders, are incredibly decorated with engravings and lined with velvet. The Zischagge I posted with a fluted skull and some decorative elements, but without engravings, appears to be somewhere in-between for an officer.

Originally Posted by fernando

Maybe i am talking nonsense but, allow me to show the lower neck guard of a close helmet, just for the sake of how the lames do articulate; not so much, but they do articulate indeed, as i have personally checked. The side rivets are 'spaced' to allow for pivoting of the leather controlled center .
.

Thank you for this! I’m not so familiar with medieval armour and keen to learn more. I understand that for plate armour to articulate you need special rivets that allow movement and/or leather straps to hold the lames in place. As I argued previously I struggle to see the need for Zischagge lobstertail neck guards to articulate a lot as we don’t bend our necks backward (or necks break) so question how mobile these were. The helmet which I posted has laminated neck guard but no lining or leather straps remaining. Many rivets are missing and I think these may have been gilded and ”recycled.” The plates have been riveted together which has largely immobilised the lames. The rivet holes are circular. I don’t know the extent to which the lames articulated when the helmet was first produced.

The attached pictures show: 1) neck guard simulated lames, 2) lobstertail neck guard articulating lames, 3) Zischägge types and 4) from Eduard Wagner’s ”European Weapons & Warfare 1618-1648” (1979).

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Victrix

... As I argued previously I struggle to see the need for Zischagge lobstertail neck guards to articulate a lot as we don’t bend our necks backward (or necks break) so question how mobile these were..

The neck guard i showed doesn't move that much, nor should all others ... i think. I guess a little contraction is enough to allow the user to look upwards.

Originally Posted by Victrix

... The attached pictures show: 1) neck guard simulated lames, 2) lobstertail neck guard articulating lames, 3) Zischägge types and 4) from Eduard Wagner’s ”European Weapons & Warfare 1618-1648” (1979).

Nice images. I gather that the drawings in 3) show the effect of an 'abnormal' articulation capacity; i would say artistic's freedom. But i know nothing ... and am not to be trusted .

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by fernando

The neck guard i showed doesn't move that much, nor should all others ... i think. I guess a little contraction is enough to allow the user to look upwards.


Nice images. I gather that the drawings in 3) show the effect of an 'abnormal' articulation capacity; i would say artistic's freedom. But i know nothing ... and am not to be trusted .

I wish I could get my hands on a few of these Zischägge now to investigate . I can’t remember properly, but seem to recall that the lobstertail neck guard lames just rattle a bit when you handle them. Never paid them much attention in the past to be honest. But maybe the Zischägge in pristine original condition do have wonderfully articulating lames. Something to look out for when I get the opportunity to handle one next!

[Raf]

Sorry to be picky but I think its important when posting reference examples to stick to ones where the authenticity is well established. Their are some good examples on this site , but also ones where legitimate questions have been raised. Attached images are from a well established supplier located in Lithuania. To avoid confusion these are modern copies.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by Raf

Sorry to be picky but I think its important when posting reference examples to stick to ones where the authenticity is well established. Their are some good examples on this site , but also ones where legitimate questions have been raised. Attached images are from a well established supplier located in Lithuania. To avoid confusion these are modern copies.

Point taken. Those modern copies you posted look extremely well made. I’m a bona fide history enthusiast with a curious mind who is slowly amassing a small armoury of military antiques. I was not aware that any reference examples I posted had legitimate questions raised about their authenticity?

[kronckew]

A small note on sliding nasal bars. Many could be worn with the bulbous part at the top, then inverted to provide more facial coverage before entering battle.

I suspect the OP's nasal was, in use, a bit straighter & bent later in life. It may be possible to rotate it if the wing screw is removed so the small protruding stud at the base will fit through, acting as a grip when down, and a stop to keep it from falling out when up. I also suppose that the missing rivet holes may have been for attaching a liner and or aventail of sorts.

[Victrix]

Originally Posted by kronckew

A small note on sliding nasal bars. Many could be worn with the bulbous part at the top, then inverted to provide more facial coverage before entering battle.

I suspect the OP's nasal was, in use, a bit straighter & bent later in life. It may be possible to rotate it if the wing screw is removed so the small protruding stud at the base will fit through, acting as a grip when down, and a stop to keep it from falling out when up. I also suppose that the missing rivet holes may have been for attaching a liner and or aventail of sorts.

Yes I think the missing rivets must have been used to hold leather straps for articulating lames and the lining. I just wonder why so many rivets are missing. There are marks around the holes from washers as well. If the studs were of precious metal they may have been salvaged at some point.