Information on Javanese knife

doecon · 19th May 2006, 11:51 PM

I have seen a very few of similar shaped old blades in Java. I'm still actually trying to get one which is probably 18th century and originating from Yogja (pamor blade). I included a pictures of a Palace guard, please take a good look and see what he is wearing.

(I dont have better pictures)

ariel · 20th May 2006, 12:03 AM

I initially agreed with Lew, but having seen good pics, I have my doubts.
This knife is of far higher quality and workmanship than anything Sudanese/Somali I have ever seen.

kai · 20th May 2006, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

I included a pictures of a Palace guard, please take a good look and see what he is wearing.

Wouldn't that be a Wedung/Wedong?

Regards,
Kai

Rick · 20th May 2006, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Wouldn't that be a Wedung/Wedong?

Regards,
Kai

Most likely Kai .
Hard to tell from a picture smaller than a postage stamp .

This piece is about as Javanese as I am .

kai · 20th May 2006, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hard to tell from a picture smaller than a postage stamp .

A while back, I've seen it in color & decent size - can't remember where though and too tired to Google...

Quote:

This piece is about as Javanese as I am .

Deal.

Pangeran Datu · 20th May 2006, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

I have seen a very few of similar shaped old blades in Java. I'm still actually trying to get one which is probably 18th century and originating from Yogja (pamor blade). I included a pictures of a Palace guard, please take a good look and see what he is wearing.

(I dont have better pictures)

G'day all,
Just to clarify things:
The image attached is originally from the book:'The History of Java' by Sir T.S. Raffles (1817). As far as I can tell, there is nothing to indicate that he is a palace guard. However, he IS a member of the Javanese nobility. He is sporting a keris ladrang and a wedung.

Regards.

doecon · 20th May 2006, 01:03 PM

G'day too,

There is indeed only the subscript with the picture mentioning he is a palace guard. But of course nobility sounds fine. And for sure he is not carying a Wedung.

Just to clarify things;

Jambea's are around in Indonesia, old ones as well. But as mentioned I rarely see one, the one I mentioned came from Yogja.In some drawings and paintings I noticed them as well (unfortunatly I had only the "stamp" above to show).

Middle eastern traders have frequent the islands for century's so it isnt so strange to find some. The trip to mekka was also made by locals, for century's. So maybe they brought them as souvenirs. During the 1800's those that had made their mekka trip were seen as a seperate nobility class, they even dressed as arabs. It can well be that Jambea's were part of their new "fashion".

Since the one I mentioned is old and has a damascus (localmade) blade, I would even leave the posibility open that they were produced locally.

I hope to show you the item within a week or so.

Tim Simmons · 20th May 2006, 02:00 PM

What interesting replies. I think you are right about the middle east, Arabia. The engraving is common to metalwork all over the middle east including Turkey, where I have seen the same style of zigzag engraving on coffee grinders. The similarity of knife hands in the horn of Africa is not uncommon. I was surprised at the steel, not that all African steel is crude in any way, some is of the finest razor quality. Thanks for the information and I am very pleased to have another Arabian piece, something I am rather short on.

kai · 20th May 2006, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

And for sure he is not carying a Wedung.

Well, that's just an assertion. You may want to give some reasons why you think that the blade on the pic *surely* is a Jambea rather than a Wedung...

I've seen a few imported as well as some locally made varieties belonging to the diverse Jambiya blade family - none of these looked anything close to the piece shown on Raffles' pic though.

Regards,
Kai

doecon · 21st May 2006, 01:45 AM

On the first picture the sheath didnt look as a wedung type at all. Better pictures probably showed my wrong

Attatched picture of Wedung from around that time (1850's). Hilt is indeed the same, scabbard still looks a bit off.

Tim Simmons · 21st May 2006, 07:45 PM

Rather an extravagant shoe horn. Pretty pretty.

Mick · 21st May 2006, 08:34 PM

doecon

If you own that piece you have gotten a hold of one of the highest ranking wedungs that I have ever seen.

Flavio · 20th May 2006, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doecon

I have seen a very few of similar shaped old blades in Java. I'm still actually trying to get one which is probably 18th century and originating from Yogja (pamor blade). I included a pictures of a Palace guard, please take a good look and see what he is wearing.

(I dont have better pictures)

The same picture is on Van Zonnevald's book. The way the knife is carried seems like the one of a wedung with a hook for the belt.

kai · 20th May 2006, 11:07 PM

Quote:

The same picture is on Van Zonnevald's book.

Thanks, Flavio! I believed I had seen that pic several times online but didn't thought of AVZ...

Quote:

The way the knife is carried seems like the one of a wedung with a hook for the belt.

Also the hilt configuration doesn't show any similarity to the usual Jambea hilts. Especially the hilt being confluent with the metok (enlarged base of the blade) seems to me to suggest a Wedung. Any other blades with a metok(-like) hilt design being acceptable for the dress code of a Jawa court?

Regards,
Kai

19th May 2006, 11:51 PM	#1
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	I have seen a very few of similar shaped old blades in Java. I'm still actually trying to get one which is probably 18th century and originating from Yogja (pamor blade). I included a pictures of a Palace guard, please take a good look and see what he is wearing. (I dont have better pictures) Attached Images

20th May 2006, 02:00 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	What interesting replies. I think you are right about the middle east, Arabia. The engraving is common to metalwork all over the middle east including Turkey, where I have seen the same style of zigzag engraving on coffee grinders. The similarity of knife hands in the horn of Africa is not uncommon. I was surprised at the steel, not that all African steel is crude in any way, some is of the finest razor quality. Thanks for the information and I am very pleased to have another Arabian piece, something I am rather short on. Attached Images

21st May 2006, 01:45 AM	#10
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	On the first picture the sheath didnt look as a wedung type at all. Better pictures probably showed my wrong Attatched picture of Wedung from around that time (1850's). Hilt is indeed the same, scabbard still looks a bit off. Attached Images

20th May 2006, 12:03 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I initially agreed with Lew, but having seen good pics, I have my doubts. This knife is of far higher quality and workmanship than anything Sudanese/Somali I have ever seen.

20th May 2006, 01:03 PM	#7
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	G'day too, There is indeed only the subscript with the picture mentioning he is a palace guard. But of course nobility sounds fine. And for sure he is not carying a Wedung. Just to clarify things; Jambea's are around in Indonesia, old ones as well. But as mentioned I rarely see one, the one I mentioned came from Yogja.In some drawings and paintings I noticed them as well (unfortunatly I had only the "stamp" above to show). Middle eastern traders have frequent the islands for century's so it isnt so strange to find some. The trip to mekka was also made by locals, for century's. So maybe they brought them as souvenirs. During the 1800's those that had made their mekka trip were seen as a seperate nobility class, they even dressed as arabs. It can well be that Jambea's were part of their new "fashion". Since the one I mentioned is old and has a damascus (localmade) blade, I would even leave the posibility open that they were produced locally. I hope to show you the item within a week or so.

21st May 2006, 07:45 PM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Rather an extravagant shoe horn. Pretty pretty.

21st May 2006, 08:34 PM	#12
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	doecon If you own that piece you have gotten a hold of one of the highest ranking wedungs that I have ever seen.