British dragoon sword

Jim McDougall · 12th September 2020, 12:33 PM

Wayne, thank you so much for responding! I can always count on you, and thank you for linking that apparently French slotted guard brass hilt of Revolutionary War period. Naturally the French were keenly involved as our allies so the presence of French weapons was quite notable.
There was a tremendous push for ersatz weaponry in which very much a remarkable spectrum of arms from many European countries was present.
This is why "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" (Neumann, 1973) is such an important 'general' reference for all types of swords of this period.

I got this sword in London about 1978 (I think), and have always admired its profoundly aged appearance, old and solid. I must confess I am very much more historian than collector, so my perspectives of appearance and condition are quite different. One of the reasons I was able to find and acquire examples which were historically important is that they were in condition scoffed at by most collectors, and I could get them despite my meager budget.

For me, I knew that these pieces had not been tampered with, so the 'history' remained in situ without compromise.

What I liked most on this sword is that through the years I discovered how unique a style it was, and as noted, one of the earliest units of 'light dragoons' favored the style, which I believe was sort of a prototype of the four slot guard. I would presume this sword to have come from Birmingham in about late 1750s into 1760s, and German blades were prevalent then to the sword furbishers active. There were remarkably few British blade makers at this time so that was common practice.

While the appearance of my sword will not be changing, I am hoping to get my notes together to regain some of the material regarding the use of similar forms by the 15th Light Dragoons (it seems like Robson, 1975 might have had some).
In the meantime would really like to hear if anyone has seen similar examples of four slot guards with straight clipped point blades.

Will M · 12th September 2020, 01:43 PM

Jim if you haven't seen this sword MDL has it currently listed but it's not a slotted hilt but is a 15 LD sword
https://www.michaeldlong.com/product...-sword-c-1763/

Jim McDougall · 12th September 2020, 03:36 PM

Thank you very much Will! That was the exact clue I needed!
In looking at this sword linked, it was such an odd pattern I had not seen such a hilt. I found an article, "An Unusual Sword in the Royal Armouries" by Philip Lankester ('Arms & Armour" Royal Armouries Vo.1, #1, 2004) in which one of these, but with lion head (p.56, #11) is shown. It has the same guard with alternating quillons. This sword (identified by the late AVB Norman) apparently belonged to George Heathfield who formed the 15th Light Dragoons in 1759. It is at Royal Collection, Windsor Castle (RCIN 61509, Laking #874).

In this article, it is noted that Jeffries, who worked in the Strand at corner of Villiers Street from 1739-until succeeded by Drury in 1772, in 1759 produced a number of basket hilt swords for the cavalry, several thousand actually, but these were used by the 'heavy cavalry, dragoon regts).
He also produced a number of swords of this tall olive pommel form with this four slot guard for other ranks.
About 140 of these survive at Belvoir Castle in Leicestershire (one also at Royal Armouries, IX 2130, purchased 1981).
The author states it is unclear which regiments used this 'pattern' .

It is known that the tests for creating light dragoon units similar to Hungarian cavalry took place in 1756, and were successful so it was proposed to begin these units in 1759. The swords used for the 'test' were light sabers with brass heart shaped guards (bilobate form as earlier hangers).

As has been noted, the 15th Light Dragoons were created in 1759, the same year Jeffries produced an undetermined number of this 'pattern' sword, so it is quite plausible that the 15th received a number of them.
It would appear that the clipped tip blades noted, as on this example, were indeed made in England by Jeffries and later others, and copied from the German types.

By 1773, the 15th had adopted stirrup hilts (flat knucklebow guard), so we know these early four slot guard forms were from c. 1759-70s. The later examples had two branches out of the knuckleguard, putting this example in probably 1759 if by Jeffries, to 1760s .
It is not possible with pitting to see blade marks which would show Jeffries
EFRIS under crown.

Jim McDougall · 12th September 2020, 07:54 PM

Looking further, in the remarkable work by Richard Dellar, "The British Cavalry Sword 1788-1912"(2013), on pp.2-3 the 15th Light Dragoons swords are noted.
The illustration (1.2) is similar to my example, and is shown as simply a light dragoon sword of the period 1760-70. As I had noted, these units were begun in 1759. We know that Jeffries made an identical sword of the one I have as the example from Royal Armouries is marked by him, and I have suggested that perhaps this type was one of the number produced by him in 1759.

There were however a number of other regiments as light dragoons, so it is possible these swords might have gone to them in degree as well.

In the example noted in Robson (1996), a 15th L.D. sword of 1763, the one with recurved quillons, it appears these were also made by Jeffries, and that while officers seem to have had chiseled lion head pommels on thier hilts, with troopers carrying similar but with these plain pommels. These must be incredibly rare (as noted in the MDL link and the price it sold for).

By 1780, the 15th Light Dragoons had gone to a simple knuckleguard stirrup hilt (illustration 1.3) shown as c. 1780. These swords were considered rare when I acquired one back in the 70s.
We know they were used by the 15th Light dragoons as examples in Dellar have blades made by Cullum (Charing Cross) and were marked 'Kings Light Dragoons' (the regiment official title).

So it would seem that my example may be one of the number of light dragoon swords produced in 1759 by Jeffries, as by 1763 he was producing the recurved quillon type. It is unclear if this regiment used the four slot type with two branches of 1770s, but by 1780, it was the stirrup hilt.

Attached : the founding colonel of the 15th light dragoons,
The two illustrations from Dellar (op.cit.)

The one in Royal Armouries purchased by them 1981. This and the 140 in Belvoir Castle are known, uncertain of others.

Jim McDougall · 14th September 2020, 08:09 PM

Just an update for those with interest in British cavalry swords and who might be reading here.
Apparently the sword described as 1763 (presumably by comparison to artwork representing the 15th LD with that date as benchmark) was only the officers version with chiseled lion head. The sword offered in the link appears to be 'presumed' to be 15th LD based on an identification of that officers sword of this form. I am not aware of evidence suggesting the 15th LD 'other ranks' actually carried this hilt form from 1763.
The fact that the plain hilt example in the link is similar in form to the lion head officers sword, along with having the 'E' rack number is what is the 'other ranks' suggestion is based on.

Returning to my sword (OP) I had thought that the 1759 contract by Jeffries where he is known to have produced an indeterminate number of swords FOR the new light dragoon regiments (he was also producing basket hilts which were the standard dragoon types of the time).
While I thought this might strongly suggest the link to 15th LD, formed that year, it appears there were four other regiments of light dragoons as well.

Just as in 1780, the use of the 'flat D' (stirrup hilt) swords as evidenced by straight blade examples with 'Kings Light Dragoons' (15th LD) on a couple of them, does not signify that there was an exclusive use of these to the 15th either.

While the distinct clipped point, virtually straight blades seem to have been favored to the 15th, we can only presume this was plausibly a favored type blade t o the light dragoon units of 1759-1780s.

I thought I would add this as noted pending further research.
Wayne and Will, thank you again for the supportive entries, and to those reading, thank you for your interest.

Bryce · 14th September 2020, 10:17 PM

G'day Jim,
As you say, there is plenty of evidence that the 15th Light Dragoons favoured this type of sword blade, but you can't rule out other regiments using them as well. The Royal Collection Trust have several examples marked to the 15 LD and also this painting of a trooper carrying a sword which does look similar to the one on the MDL website.
Cheers,
Bryce

Jim McDougall · 15th September 2020, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Jim,
As you say, there is plenty of evidence that the 15th Light Dragoons favoured this type of sword blade, but you can't rule out other regiments using them as well. The Royal Collection Trust have several examples marked to the 15 LD and also this painting of a trooper carrying a sword which does look similar to the one on the MDL website.
Cheers,
Bryce

Thanks for coming in Bryce! and exactly, my supposition would be that Jeffries' 'other' swords produced in 1759, aside from the 3500 basket hilts he made for the standard dragoon units, where these were for the 'new' L.D. units.
We know these were the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th, but what they carried is unclear for this period.
What seems to be is that the 'light dragoons' were to carry a lighter sword than the basket hilts, and from what I have seen, they had a brass hilt with heart shape similar to the M1751 ? hangers.

I would venture that this painting is the source for AVB Normans identification of this mystery '1763 pattern'. We use the term loosely of course as there were no official 'patterns' in these times in G.B. .
Hangers such as the 1742 and 1751 were based on paintings of the troop uniforms of the types in use.

12th September 2020, 07:54 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Looking further, in the remarkable work by Richard Dellar, "The British Cavalry Sword 1788-1912"(2013), on pp.2-3 the 15th Light Dragoons swords are noted. The illustration (1.2) is similar to my example, and is shown as simply a light dragoon sword of the period 1760-70. As I had noted, these units were begun in 1759. We know that Jeffries made an identical sword of the one I have as the example from Royal Armouries is marked by him, and I have suggested that perhaps this type was one of the number produced by him in 1759. There were however a number of other regiments as light dragoons, so it is possible these swords might have gone to them in degree as well. In the example noted in Robson (1996), a 15th L.D. sword of 1763, the one with recurved quillons, it appears these were also made by Jeffries, and that while officers seem to have had chiseled lion head pommels on thier hilts, with troopers carrying similar but with these plain pommels. These must be incredibly rare (as noted in the MDL link and the price it sold for). By 1780, the 15th Light Dragoons had gone to a simple knuckleguard stirrup hilt (illustration 1.3) shown as c. 1780. These swords were considered rare when I acquired one back in the 70s. We know they were used by the 15th Light dragoons as examples in Dellar have blades made by Cullum (Charing Cross) and were marked 'Kings Light Dragoons' (the regiment official title). So it would seem that my example may be one of the number of light dragoon swords produced in 1759 by Jeffries, as by 1763 he was producing the recurved quillon type. It is unclear if this regiment used the four slot type with two branches of 1770s, but by 1780, it was the stirrup hilt. Attached : the founding colonel of the 15th light dragoons, The two illustrations from Dellar (op.cit.) The one in Royal Armouries purchased by them 1981. This and the 140 in Belvoir Castle are known, uncertain of others. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 13th September 2020 at 01:53 AM.

14th September 2020, 10:17 PM	#6
Bryce Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: North Queensland, Australia Posts: 189	G'day Jim, As you say, there is plenty of evidence that the 15th Light Dragoons favoured this type of sword blade, but you can't rule out other regiments using them as well. The Royal Collection Trust have several examples marked to the 15 LD and also this painting of a trooper carrying a sword which does look similar to the one on the MDL website. Cheers, Bryce Attached Images

12th September 2020, 12:33 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Wayne, thank you so much for responding! I can always count on you, and thank you for linking that apparently French slotted guard brass hilt of Revolutionary War period. Naturally the French were keenly involved as our allies so the presence of French weapons was quite notable. There was a tremendous push for ersatz weaponry in which very much a remarkable spectrum of arms from many European countries was present. This is why "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution" (Neumann, 1973) is such an important 'general' reference for all types of swords of this period. I got this sword in London about 1978 (I think), and have always admired its profoundly aged appearance, old and solid. I must confess I am very much more historian than collector, so my perspectives of appearance and condition are quite different. One of the reasons I was able to find and acquire examples which were historically important is that they were in condition scoffed at by most collectors, and I could get them despite my meager budget. For me, I knew that these pieces had not been tampered with, so the 'history' remained in situ without compromise. What I liked most on this sword is that through the years I discovered how unique a style it was, and as noted, one of the earliest units of 'light dragoons' favored the style, which I believe was sort of a prototype of the four slot guard. I would presume this sword to have come from Birmingham in about late 1750s into 1760s, and German blades were prevalent then to the sword furbishers active. There were remarkably few British blade makers at this time so that was common practice. While the appearance of my sword will not be changing, I am hoping to get my notes together to regain some of the material regarding the use of similar forms by the 15th Light Dragoons (it seems like Robson, 1975 might have had some). In the meantime would really like to hear if anyone has seen similar examples of four slot guards with straight clipped point blades.

12th September 2020, 01:43 PM	#2
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 395	Jim if you haven't seen this sword MDL has it currently listed but it's not a slotted hilt but is a 15 LD sword https://www.michaeldlong.com/product...-sword-c-1763/

12th September 2020, 03:36 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Thank you very much Will! That was the exact clue I needed! In looking at this sword linked, it was such an odd pattern I had not seen such a hilt. I found an article, "An Unusual Sword in the Royal Armouries" by Philip Lankester ('Arms & Armour" Royal Armouries Vo.1, #1, 2004) in which one of these, but with lion head (p.56, #11) is shown. It has the same guard with alternating quillons. This sword (identified by the late AVB Norman) apparently belonged to George Heathfield who formed the 15th Light Dragoons in 1759. It is at Royal Collection, Windsor Castle (RCIN 61509, Laking #874). In this article, it is noted that Jeffries, who worked in the Strand at corner of Villiers Street from 1739-until succeeded by Drury in 1772, in 1759 produced a number of basket hilt swords for the cavalry, several thousand actually, but these were used by the 'heavy cavalry, dragoon regts). He also produced a number of swords of this tall olive pommel form with this four slot guard for other ranks. About 140 of these survive at Belvoir Castle in Leicestershire (one also at Royal Armouries, IX 2130, purchased 1981). The author states it is unclear which regiments used this 'pattern' . It is known that the tests for creating light dragoon units similar to Hungarian cavalry took place in 1756, and were successful so it was proposed to begin these units in 1759. The swords used for the 'test' were light sabers with brass heart shaped guards (bilobate form as earlier hangers). As has been noted, the 15th Light Dragoons were created in 1759, the same year Jeffries produced an undetermined number of this 'pattern' sword, so it is quite plausible that the 15th received a number of them. It would appear that the clipped tip blades noted, as on this example, were indeed made in England by Jeffries and later others, and copied from the German types. By 1773, the 15th had adopted stirrup hilts (flat knucklebow guard), so we know these early four slot guard forms were from c. 1759-70s. The later examples had two branches out of the knuckleguard, putting this example in probably 1759 if by Jeffries, to 1760s . It is not possible with pitting to see blade marks which would show Jeffries EFRIS under crown.

14th September 2020, 08:09 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Just an update for those with interest in British cavalry swords and who might be reading here. Apparently the sword described as 1763 (presumably by comparison to artwork representing the 15th LD with that date as benchmark) was only the officers version with chiseled lion head. The sword offered in the link appears to be 'presumed' to be 15th LD based on an identification of that officers sword of this form. I am not aware of evidence suggesting the 15th LD 'other ranks' actually carried this hilt form from 1763. The fact that the plain hilt example in the link is similar in form to the lion head officers sword, along with having the 'E' rack number is what is the 'other ranks' suggestion is based on. Returning to my sword (OP) I had thought that the 1759 contract by Jeffries where he is known to have produced an indeterminate number of swords FOR the new light dragoon regiments (he was also producing basket hilts which were the standard dragoon types of the time). While I thought this might strongly suggest the link to 15th LD, formed that year, it appears there were four other regiments of light dragoons as well. Just as in 1780, the use of the 'flat D' (stirrup hilt) swords as evidenced by straight blade examples with 'Kings Light Dragoons' (15th LD) on a couple of them, does not signify that there was an exclusive use of these to the 15th either. While the distinct clipped point, virtually straight blades seem to have been favored to the 15th, we can only presume this was plausibly a favored type blade t o the light dragoon units of 1759-1780s. I thought I would add this as noted pending further research. Wayne and Will, thank you again for the supportive entries, and to those reading, thank you for your interest.