Koummya (information/opinions)

Lee · 14th August 2020, 04:14 PM

I can surely see the similarities in workmanship between Rareis' example and Sajen's with the orange cord above. I also accept the mid-20th century dating stated by several observers above. As with Sajen's antique example shown above, not all ethnographic examples will have mounts completely of silver. One in Lew's collection had clearly seen use within the culture, but was mounted in brass and nickel silver. (I have regretted not having bought it from his Estate for myself.)

Rareis, you may wish to try polishing your mounts with silver creme. If a rich silvery luster quickly develops with black staining on your cloth, that suggests silver. Less luster, more work or traces of green on the cloth would favor nickel silver.

Of course, with later examples made after widespread tourism to an area you can never be entirely sure of the intended 'destination' of a piece, but I do believe this one is good enough to keep in your collection - at least until you find a better one that strikes your fancy.

mariusgmioc · 14th August 2020, 04:33 PM

Hello Detlef,

Why I do believe even more so it is silver?!

OXIDATION!

Please notice that the depressions/crevices in the engraved metal are oxidized black, which is quite typical for silver. Nickel-silver does not oxidize like that (see your example).

PS: Silver is very easy to identify without any effort other than patience. If in a few months it will start developing darker oxidation, then almost certainly is silver. There are also liquid reactives for identifying silver and any jeweler will be able to identify it immediately.

PPS: From the photos, it appears the hanging loops are not the original but replacement ones (different metal and crude fitting).

Sajen · 15th August 2020, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Detlef,

Why I do believe even more so it is silver?!

OXIDATION!

Please notice that the depressions/crevices in the engraved metal are oxidized black, which is quite typical for silver. Nickel-silver does not oxidize like that (see your example).

Hello Marius,

And why I am so sure that it isn't silver??

Look to a picture from my example taken without flash!

I guess it's nonnatural oxidation, I've seen this by many other white metal scabbards/mounts.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 15th August 2020, 11:21 AM

PS: Another sign of very recent manufacture is in my eyes the blade, compare the here shown examples.

Here two pictures, one picture taken with and one without flash, from two antique blades and the recent one with orange cord, I think I don't need to tell where the recent one is placed!

mariusgmioc · 15th August 2020, 01:09 PM

Hi Detlef,

You seem to be right... but I don't give up until it will be definitely confirmed.

I don't know how it is for you but I find this kind of disagreements very, very interesting and educative!

Sajen · 15th August 2020, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

You seem to be right... but I don't give up until it will be definitely confirmed.

I think that we agree that the piece in question is rather recent. I personal think that the rather crude workmanship points to German silver. But like you I would like to know what material it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I don't know how it is for you but I find this kind disagreements very, very interesting and educative!

Complete agreement Marius!

Like you say, educative!

Sajen · 15th August 2020, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

I can surely see the similarities in workmanship between Rareis' example and Sajen's with the orange cord above. I also accept the mid-20th century dating stated by several observers above. As with Sajen's antique example shown above, not all ethnographic examples will have mounts completely of silver. One in Lew's collection had clearly seen use within the culture, but was mounted in brass and nickel silver. (I have regretted not having bought it from his Estate for myself.)

Yes Lee, I agree with you in all parts and like you I think that the example from Lew is a very nice old/antique example. I've added two pictures from it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Rareis, you may wish to try polishing your mounts with silver creme. If a rich silvery luster quickly develops with black staining on your cloth, that suggests silver. Less luster, more work or traces of green on the cloth would favor nickel silver.

I also agree that you see by polishing if you have silver or an other white metal alloy but you need a little bit experience, some white metal alloys develop a similar black staining on the polish cloth. And it can become difficult when you have a low silver alloy. Complete sure you only can get by testing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Of course, with later examples made after widespread tourism to an area you can never be entirely sure of the intended 'destination' of a piece, but I do believe this one is good enough to keep in your collection - at least until you find a better one that strikes your fancy.

Agree again, keep it until a better one cross your way, and you will also have an example to compare!

Regards,
Detlef

14th August 2020, 04:33 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Hello Detlef, Why I do believe even more so it is silver?! OXIDATION! Please notice that the depressions/crevices in the engraved metal are oxidized black, which is quite typical for silver. Nickel-silver does not oxidize like that (see your example). PS: Silver is very easy to identify without any effort other than patience. If in a few months it will start developing darker oxidation, then almost certainly is silver. There are also liquid reactives for identifying silver and any jeweler will be able to identify it immediately. PPS: From the photos, it appears the hanging loops are not the original but replacement ones (different metal and crude fitting). Last edited by mariusgmioc; 14th August 2020 at 05:21 PM.

15th August 2020, 11:21 AM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,214	PS: Another sign of very recent manufacture is in my eyes the blade, compare the here shown examples. Here two pictures, one picture taken with and one without flash, from two antique blades and the recent one with orange cord, I think I don't need to tell where the recent one is placed! Attached Images

14th August 2020, 04:14 PM	#1
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	I can surely see the similarities in workmanship between Rareis' example and Sajen's with the orange cord above. I also accept the mid-20th century dating stated by several observers above. As with Sajen's antique example shown above, not all ethnographic examples will have mounts completely of silver. One in Lew's collection had clearly seen use within the culture, but was mounted in brass and nickel silver. (I have regretted not having bought it from his Estate for myself.) Rareis, you may wish to try polishing your mounts with silver creme. If a rich silvery luster quickly develops with black staining on your cloth, that suggests silver. Less luster, more work or traces of green on the cloth would favor nickel silver. Of course, with later examples made after widespread tourism to an area you can never be entirely sure of the intended 'destination' of a piece, but I do believe this one is good enough to keep in your collection - at least until you find a better one that strikes your fancy.

15th August 2020, 01:09 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	Hi Detlef, You seem to be right... but I don't give up until it will be definitely confirmed. I don't know how it is for you but I find this kind of disagreements very, very interesting and educative!