Mystery Weapons from Bulgaria

gp · 7th May 2020, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

Hi, these are photos from an exhibition of the "museum for the macedonian struggle", that is currently on public view. There are kamas used by Greek fighters, but of course there is no evidence where in Macedonia (or in what balkan teritory) they were made.

Very interesting is the shamshir style sword. Its guard has one part turning at one side and the other part on the other side, exactly the style of the guard of some of the kamas. Therefore definitely made at the same place with the same fashion.

Hello Eftihis, being the new kid on the block, I read some older post which interest me. So also this one...which raises a question:
did the weapons belong to Greek guerilla's on mainland Europe, Asia Minor or the ones from Crete ( as described in Captain Michalis / Ο Καπετάν Μιχάλης, the novel by Nikos Kazantzakis ? Or was there not much difference at all ?

TVV · 8th May 2020, 04:36 PM

Itaca, the dagger with the hilt encased on brass(second one from your pictures going from the top down) is Bulgarian, there is no doubt about that. It was probably made in Gabrovo, the main knife making center from the early 20th century, though unless there are markings it would be impossible to tell for certain. I am not sure about the first dagger you show, as it looks like a custom creation.

Teodor

ariel · 8th May 2020, 08:49 PM

Sorry, but somehow I have missed the excitement.

There were at least 2 major waves/ routes of kindjal entry into the Balkan areal.
First, straight from the Ottoman Turkey.
Second, with the exile of Circassians and other local participants from the occupied Caucasus into the Ottoman Empire. From there the “ muhajirs” were dispersed all over the Empire. Balkans, vilayet of Damascus were the main destinations. Amman was established ( or revived) by Shapsughs, personal guard of the king of Jordan is still Circassian, there are Circassian villages in Israel. But even before that, Circassians in the former Mamluke Egypt became highly placed officials in Sudan ( I have a typical Caucasian kindjal with unmistakable Sudanese features). Caucasian influence or even actual trade blades can be found in Arabia proper and even as far as India, where kindjal blades became popular as hunting weapons among the upper stratum.

Muhajir masters continued to manufacture kindjals and shashkas in a typical Caucasian style but with hints of their Turkish origin ( for example, just a Tugra).
On top of that, these Caucasian weapons acquired local, often European, features. IMHO, the brass frame is just that.

Weapons move, mutate and create strange and often charming chimeras.
Kirill Rivkin was correct stating that they may be the most reliable markers of historical developments and population movements.

kwiatek · 8th May 2020, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Itaca, the dagger with the hilt encased on brass(second one from your pictures going from the top down) is Bulgarian, there is no doubt about that. It was probably made in Gabrovo, the main knife making center from the early 20th century, though unless there are markings it would be impossible to tell for certain. I am not sure about the first dagger you show, as it looks like a custom creation.

Teodor

Interesting. The only place names I've ever seen on any non-imperial yataghan is 'Rahova', which was the Ottoman Turkish name for Orjahovo which is on the Danube. At first of all I assumed this was a mistake for Gabrovo, since that place is well known for blade manufacture, but I've seen it on a couple of pieces

TVV · 11th May 2020, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwiatek

Interesting. The only place names I've ever seen on any non-imperial yataghan is 'Rahova', which was the Ottoman Turkish name for Orjahovo which is on the Danube. At first of all I assumed this was a mistake for Gabrovo, since that place is well known for blade manufacture, but I've seen it on a couple of pieces

Kwiatek, this is very interesting, as place names on yataghans are extremely rare. Were those referring to the place of manufacture or the place where the owner lived?

Also, what do you mean by non-imperial yataghans?

Teodor

kwiatek · 11th May 2020, 09:09 PM

As the place of manufacture. I will have to dig them up from my photo archive and ask the owners' permission, though I think they will probably be published shortly anyway.

By non-imperial, I just meant the later type i.e. not the one in the Topkapi made for Süleyman by Ahmed Tekelü or the similar one in the Met (which don't mention the place of production either).

8th May 2020, 04:36 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	Itaca, the dagger with the hilt encased on brass(second one from your pictures going from the top down) is Bulgarian, there is no doubt about that. It was probably made in Gabrovo, the main knife making center from the early 20th century, though unless there are markings it would be impossible to tell for certain. I am not sure about the first dagger you show, as it looks like a custom creation. Teodor

8th May 2020, 08:49 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry, but somehow I have missed the excitement. There were at least 2 major waves/ routes of kindjal entry into the Balkan areal. First, straight from the Ottoman Turkey. Second, with the exile of Circassians and other local participants from the occupied Caucasus into the Ottoman Empire. From there the “ muhajirs” were dispersed all over the Empire. Balkans, vilayet of Damascus were the main destinations. Amman was established ( or revived) by Shapsughs, personal guard of the king of Jordan is still Circassian, there are Circassian villages in Israel. But even before that, Circassians in the former Mamluke Egypt became highly placed officials in Sudan ( I have a typical Caucasian kindjal with unmistakable Sudanese features). Caucasian influence or even actual trade blades can be found in Arabia proper and even as far as India, where kindjal blades became popular as hunting weapons among the upper stratum. Muhajir masters continued to manufacture kindjals and shashkas in a typical Caucasian style but with hints of their Turkish origin ( for example, just a Tugra). On top of that, these Caucasian weapons acquired local, often European, features. IMHO, the brass frame is just that. Weapons move, mutate and create strange and often charming chimeras. Kirill Rivkin was correct stating that they may be the most reliable markers of historical developments and population movements.

11th May 2020, 09:09 PM	#6
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 156	As the place of manufacture. I will have to dig them up from my photo archive and ask the owners' permission, though I think they will probably be published shortly anyway. By non-imperial, I just meant the later type i.e. not the one in the Topkapi made for Süleyman by Ahmed Tekelü or the similar one in the Met (which don't mention the place of production either).