Firangi

[ariel]

Jim,
I understand your points, but having handled a lot of Indian blades I am virtually certain that the blade is European.
I do not think I have seen such wide and shallow Fuller on Indian blades and the general appearance of the steel, its sheen, are distinctly not Indian. Together with markings it supports the European origin. And, yes, we cannot pinpoint the origin of the blade other than a general feeling of North Italy.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

Jim,
I understand your points, but having handled a lot of Indian blades I am virtually certain that the blade is European.
I do not think I have seen such wide and shallow Fuller on Indian blades and the general appearance of the steel, its sheen, are distinctly not Indian. Together with markings it supports the European origin. And, yes, we cannot pinpoint the origin of the blade other than a general feeling of North Italy.

I am really glad my points are understood, from my opinion in post #12 indicating I thought the blade was European (North Italian) as well as my subsequent posts supporting that. I am unclear on where I am to have suggested the blade was Indian.

[ariel]

Jim,
I have interpreted your saying “It is difficult at best to assess a sword blade to determine whether it is European or a native made example by photo” as such. Obviously, it was my mistake. Glad we are in agreement.

[fernando]

... As apparently we are not betraying our first assessments. A sword with an Indian hilt and a foreign (Italian for the case) blade; a setup named by many as Firangi. This might not be the most academic definition, but sure is the most known by the common collector; maybe even by the locals.
... Authors not being an exception, like Tirri, for one .


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[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

Jim,
I have interpreted your saying “It is difficult at best to assess a sword blade to determine whether it is European or a native made example by photo” as such. Obviously, it was my mistake. Glad we are in agreement.

Thank you Ariel, I think sometimes (often) my explanations become a bit too detailed, so often misunderstanding my wording is often quite understandable. Ironically, what I was trying to say is that your 'firangi' was VERY much so, and a most handsome and excellent example of the 'form'........a Hindu basket hilt, holding a distinctly European blade.

My comments in assessing the blades by photo meant to point out that the key elements used to ascertain European origin cannot be expected to be achieved unequivocably in these cases. This is because hands on examination can more closely determine the application and character of markings, as well as the flaws and metallurgical elements, weight, spring and demeanor of the blade. Too often being cautious in declaring an opinion as such can be misperceived accordingly.

As noted previously, the 'firangi' term is not by any means a clear definition of a sword 'type', but a qualifying description most commonly used in collectors parlance to describe a 'Hindu basket hilt' form sword carrying as European or 'foreign' blade. It has in cases been attempted to be applied to other forms with such blades, but in my view unsuccessfully.

Here I would agree that the 'firangi' term is indeed used in many references toward describing these Indian swords, as it has become such a standard in collectors parlance. The book by the late Anthony Tirri being mentioned, I would note was as well known not 'academic' by the standards of the larger scholarship of arms literature, but as I have always asserted, it was a great reference guide for the categories of arms typically encountered in the collecting community. The point is that terms need not be 'academically' correct if they are broadly and collectively known in a certain descriptive sense and commonly used as such.

While probably not a collectively used term in local vernacular, I am sure that in degree, the firangi term has found use in many of the diverse languages and regions in India. This would of course account for its place in the literature on Indian arms which led to its more stringent use by collectors as described.

[fernando]

An inteligent explanation in context, Jim ... as usual .

As an aside ...
The power of language is like that; the repetitive calling a thing with a determined name by the common man, ends up becoming effective. When i was in school, the teacher told me that Jesus, pretending to cover the largest audience with his parables, spoke to the crowd in Aramic; which i took as the period "lingua franca".
Looks like Stone fell to the same sin .

Good "nite" ... dearest cowboy .

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[fernando]

Ariel, i wonder if you have this Elgood PDF work in your library.
Worthy of note is the different way the author uses the Firangy term; as he attributes it to the blade itself and not to the sword as a whole.
Also interesting how he establishes the origin and follow up of the sickle mark.


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[Kubur]

Yes it is litteraly what it is: firangi blade = european blade

More I look at Ariel blade more I think that the mark is engraved - and not stamped - and therefore it is more likely an Indian blade...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by fernando

An inteligent explanation in context, Jim ... as usual .

As an aside ...
The power of language is like that; the repetitive calling a thing with a determined name by the common man, ends up becoming effective. When i was in school, the teacher told me that Jesus, pretending to cover the largest audience with his parables, spoke to the crowd in Aramic; which i took as the period "lingua franca".
Looks like Stone fell to the same sin .

Good "nite" ... dearest cowboy .

.

Aw shucks Fernando! Thank you! it weren't nuthin'!
Really, excellent analogy, and VERY well placed. It is ABOUT the lingua francia, and it is wise to use in cases where you are trying to reach the broader scope audience.
Collecting has developed its own 'lingua francia', complete with terms as well as commonly held notions since it evolved as an actual hobby.
Well put, Stone as one of the seminal authors of references specifically intended for collectors well observed this most sensible practice.

During the 'debates' over the years, it has been well proven that the term 'KATAR' was misapplied to the transverse grip dagger we all know well.
The actual term was of course 'jamadhar', but was inadvertently transposed in Egerton (1884), with subsequent writers following suit.
Even though the mistake was well revealed, as a matter of prudence the term remains in use as it has become established to collectors as referring to that specific weapon form.

Also, the Elgood example on the firangi term is quintessant, and addresses the Genoa circumstance perfectly.

Well observed Kubur, on the engraving or scribing of the mark. As previously noted, relying on photos is typically less than optimum for such determinations, and a caveat I would add is that adding such marks using these methods does not specifically denote India as a source of the blade.

The many entrepots in trade network circuits were well aware of the increased value of markings (especially those associated with quality and integrity on volumes of European blades). It was not unusual for less than skilled persons to attempt to duplicate these in those places as they offered these blades to customers.

The point I made regarding the pairing of the sickle arcs and the 'star' was that in my view, such spurious application of markings did not typically add the other markings often accompanying the key markings in European context configurations.
In native regions ethnographically it was not surprising to see well known European markings copied, such as the 'sickles', however the added marks were not usually added and not regarded as relevant.....it was the key marking which carried or imbued the 'power or magic'.

Also, we cannot discount the fact that even in European settings where unskilled workers could well have applied such marks to trade shipments destined for native markets, such amateur examples are occasionally seen.

All we can do is speculate, and try to find the best answers from collected data and comprehensive experience as a group sharing same.