Firangi

[ariel]

Thanks, Fernando! Do you think the “ jaws” are Genoese?

[fernando]

Don't take my hint as a solid one, Ariel.
OTOH, have you never heard of Portuguese navigators acquiring blades from Venetian traders and go introduce them in India ? ... thus the Firangi attribution .


See the center symbol in my ex-Firangi ... just for the fun .


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[ariel]

Originally Posted by fernando

Don't take my hint as a solid one, Ariel.
OTOH, have you never heard of Portuguese navigators acquiring blades from Venetian traders and go introduce them in India ? ... thus the Firangi attribution .


See the center symbol in my ex-Firangi ... just for the fun .


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Of course, Italian trade blades went far an wide. And the sea-faring Portuguese like Almeida and Albuquerque were the perfect vehicle for their South Indian entry.

[fernando]

And, not forgetting that trade blades were supplied by the bundle; so one not expecting to see marked on each one of them the names of famed smiths, but symbols pertaining to market(ing) trade ideas ... to say so.

[Kubur]

I would like to moderate two statments or at least to bring my humble contribution.

Originally Posted by fernando

have you never heard of Portuguese navigators acquiring blades from Venetian traders and go introduce them in India ? ... thus the Firangi attribution .
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Portuguese and Venetians were competitors not business partners!

Originally Posted by ariel

Of course, Italian trade blades went far an wide. And the sea-faring Portuguese like Almeida and Albuquerque were the perfect vehicle for their South Indian entry.

I doubt that Almeida and Albuquerque's men gave or sold their blades to Indians they had some other business to do...

Rapier's blades were sold and reused when they started to be obsolete in Europe.

In short Portuguese sold their old crap from Goa long time after Almeida and Albuquerque...

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I would like to moderate two statments or at least to bring my humble contribution...

Kubur, your contribution might have been humble ... but humble is not the way you express your views, if i may .
I am sure Ariel mentions Almeida and Albuquerque as a symbolic reference to Portuguese travelers; as i wonder how you have inferred such anecdotal situation in that their men would have given or sold their own blades to the locals.
I would not worry to point out the difference between Portuguese and Venetians being partners or competitors; the sense of business transcends any such condition. In any case, Portuguese were not massive blade smiths; they had to buy them somewhere to take them to India for business; Germany and Spain were also usual sources for blades import.
One point worthy of credit is that, when large (off mark) blades became obsolete in Europe, they became a good asset for Indian trade.
I am sure that you are well documented over the precise statement that Portuguese sold their 'old crap blades' from the Goan artillery foundries and shipyards, an angle of history i hadn't yet been familiar with.


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[ariel]

Yes David, it makes perfect sense: combining a 16 century European blade with an old European handle makes much better economic sense than using an Indian handle :-)

On the other hand a “ Europe/ Orient” combination may be fully legitimate. The best example is the use of trade blades; also, British sold their outdated blades to local Nizams and Rajahs in the first half of 19th century and let’s not forget about the trophies: even Tipu had one. Also, high ranking British officers used local Indian wootz blades with their regulation handles.

I am beginning to think about a new topic: legitimately old chimeric India-related swords. Might be fun:-)