ID for Ancient Kujang / Kudi? Hindu /Siam/Persian influence?

doecon · 10th May 2006, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

. It is possible that they may originally have been known as "wedun(g)" , this being Old Javanese for a type of axe with a wide blade. This is pure hypothesis on my part.

An axe blade might make sense indeed, as a hypothesis. Will look into this.
Thanks for your kind assistance in this case and sharing your knowledge with us.

I do however think that a "popular" study of the ancient (distinct) weapons, might be usefull for some of us. Eventhough these items are rare, it certainly can be helpfull for studying more recent weapons, their features as well as handling techniques and their history ect. On top of it, there is very little known about the keris history in early ages, this "popular" field is probably usefull for others as well, not only the academic audience.

B.I · 10th May 2006, 09:21 AM

''In case you are assuming anything related to my culture, then please don’t, since you have probably no clue what my cultural background is.''

by culture, i meant the weapon and not yourself (how can i presume where you are from?). some of us are caught up collecting and studying other 'cultures' and so posts like this which involve someone having to prove his point are very informative for us, as you take the breakdown of your opinion to a very basic level. as collectors we need to know why something is fake, or what makes it real. its all a learning curve.
your point was valid, but it needed more explanation for a novice to understand and accept, which was nicely provided.

A. G. Maisey · 10th May 2006, 10:16 AM

Quote:-
"Pangeran Datu , regarding the rectangular tang; Early versions of the keris (Keris budha) have a similar tang. Some believe (forgot where I found that) that the earlier shape tang indicated that it wasn’t originally used as a trusting weapon, but more as a slash and cut weapon (borabodur shows some relief where the keris is held in an upper arm grip as well). So the square tang kept the blade from turning in his hilt when the goal was hit. "

In "Origin of the Keris etc," which may be found here:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/index.html

I wrote the following.

Quote:-
"Further evidence that the keris buda was used as, and developed from a weapon used with an overarm stabbing action, is to be found in the tang. The tang of the keris buda is of square section. Such a tang was necessary to prevent the blade from turning in the handle, something very undesirable in a weapon used with a powerful overarm, downwards stabbing action. Conversely, the tang of the modern keris is round, which allows adjustment of the orientation of the blade to the grip, to suit the individual user, a desirable feature of the keris used as a thrusting weapon, which is unimportant where the weapon is used overarm."

I am not aware that any researcher has proposed that the square tang demonstrated that the proto-type keris was used as a slashing weapon.

In fact, I consider that such use would be highly unlikely, as the proto-type keris was much shorter than the modern keris, and there are no monumental depictions of any object even vaguely resembling a keris, being used as a slashing weapon.

The relief carvings where overarm use of the proto-type keris can be seen are at Candi Prambanan.

There is no representation of any keris or keris-like weapon or object at Candi Borobudur

drdavid · 10th May 2006, 10:29 AM

Thank you for a very interesting discussion, there is a great deal to consider here. Please excuse my novice question here but is it easier to forge a square tang or a round tang, because it would seem easier to make a round hole than a square hole in the piece of wood that is used as a handle. Perhaps there is a reason other than the function of the item that determines some of its physical characteristics?
DrD

A. G. Maisey · 10th May 2006, 02:39 PM

Yes, it probably is easier to forge square than round. At least it is quicker.

However, I would put it to you that form follows function.

The job is identified, and the tool is produced to do the job.

If we want a handle to turn easily, we provide a round tang.

If we do not want a handle to turn, we provide a tang with sides.

Pangeran Datu · 10th May 2006, 02:47 PM

Just to put in a further "two-bob's", one must remember that the kudi is a traditional implement of the WHOLE of Java and Madura, while the Kujang is a traditional implement of West Java only. Because of the similarity in shape, it is not surprising that in West Java, the difference between the two implements is somewhat esoteric.
I have just looked at an old and small photo of part of the Sumedang collection. It shows blades of similar shapes but with many variations, attached to ceremonial lances.

Digressing to tangs; as far as I know, there are four types of pesi/tang for kerises:
- round
- round at the ganja end and becoming square at the hilt end
- round at the ganja end and becoming flat with a hole at the hilt end (lika a needle)
- twisted, like a corkscrew
From what I know of the manufacturing process, it would not make much difference whether one makes the tang round or rectangular, but then, neither am I an Empu nor a metallurgist.

I apologise if I have made things more convoluted.

doecon · 10th May 2006, 07:41 PM

Maisey thanks for sharing, again. I was a bit off with the location of the relief, but thanks for correcting me.

Regarding the square tang, I agree indeed that it’s for blade stability. (Its probably easier to create as well). I have indeed read our article, but I came to a different conclusion. Combination of a larger tang and a square tang would be optimal for any (half) circular movement (up-down or sideways) with the arm (or arms), in my opinion this includes “slashing”. (many slashing weapons do have a square tang, right?). This doesn’t include the keris budha, of course, since it seems rather useless to slash with a short blade.

Mentioning the item being a possible axe helped a lot. I honestly didn’t see that before.
After some quick and rough research I came across a “axe-dagger” or “axe-knife” which has very similar features, originating from the Gujarat area India. (Java was a regular destination for traders from the Gujarat area in those days, shipments included iron and damaststeel).

The axe I’m referring to is called Bhuj (after the city) or Kutti (Kuttai means to cut). It has a tang and is placed on a larger stick (3 times bladesize) so it indicates a doublehand grip..and indeed used for “circular movements”. It comes very near this actual example, but I have to admit that the one in the Sukuh relief has better resemblance (maybe the tip of mine has indeed broken off). It also explains why the tang is rather long and maybe…just maybe..it sounds a bit similar to Kudi (which is probably a late cousin of this blade)

I do not think the name “wedung” is proper for this blade, but I haven’t found a better one yet myself. So I guess its kudi, till proven better

BI: sorry for the misunderstanding
Drdavid: A round hole is indeed easier to make in a smaller pommel, so probably a smaller pommel required a round tang as well. Good point.
Pangeran: Thanks for your comments, I stick to “Kudi” for this blade, but as mentioned probably an early form, looking forward however to see the “needle” tang.

A. G. Maisey · 11th May 2006, 12:39 AM

Regarding round tangs and tangs with sides:- if you are going to forge round, you draw down to square first, so a tang with sides is faster to forge, however, the tang in a modern keris is not forged round, it is made round by stock removal.What I wrote on the tang of Buda style keris was only intended to apply to those implements. One may be able to extend reasoning into another dimension, but my comments were specific to the keris Buda alone.

The implement under discussion cannot be named with any certainty, nor can the suggestion of a possible name be discounted. The language we are dealing with is Old Javanese, which has not been in use since the 1600`s. In Old Javanese one of the words for an axe is "wedun(g)". This implement may be a wedun(g), or it may not be. Certainly it bears no similarity to the knife that we presently know as a wedung, but this modern knife is purely ceremonial in function, indicating the willingness of the wearer to cut a way through the jungle for his lord.However, it is not valid to discount a name, nor attempt to affix with any certainty a name, for any archaic object, basing that attempt upon present day names for present day objects.
Of course, for simplification of reference we can call this object anything we wish, but that does not mean that we are using the name by which it was called by the people who made and used it.However, in Old Javanese a kudhi was a knife with a curved blade used to cut grass and that had a bulge in the blade near to the handle; I do not think that this definition is suitable to describe the object under discussion.
I have some difficulty in understanding why we need to give this object a name at all. It is obvious that we cannot name it correctly.

Any bhuj that I have ever seen bears not the smallest resemblance to the object under discussion, in any case, there is little or no validity in comparison of a 19th century Indian object with a Javanese object from the far distant past.

I do not understand why we are attempting to link this archaic Javanese object with objects from other places. It is a tool, or perhaps a tool/weapon, its origin is Jawa, and Jawa did have an indigenous culture of its own, prior to contact with the Indian subcontinent, and subsequently with other parts of the world. The nature of Javanese society and culture is that it has continually absorbed and modified input from other cultures, so it may well be that this humble little iron implement did have a progenitor from some other culture, or it could be that it is something uniquely Javanese. To settle this question would require an immense amount of very dedicated and intense research, at the end of which, no answer may be able to be provided.In any case, this object is one of a class of objects. These objects bear similarities in construction and form, but all are different.

Based upon the objects of similar form that I have seen over the years, I am inclined to consider this type of object something that was fairly widely spread throughout Jawa for a considerable length of time. The Early Classical period in Jawa was to roughly 1000AD, after which there was a shift of power to East Jawa, we had a procession of kingdoms in East Jawa, culminating with Majapahit which was finished prior to 1525, the Islamic kingdoms followed Majapahit, and the move back to the interior came with Pajang, followed by the foundation of the House of Mataram, which is still with us today. From this, it can be seen that there is a continuity to Javanese culture that is not based simply upon the place where the ruler happens to be at any one time. In fact, the influence of the East Jawa kingdom of Majapahit extended into Central Jawa, and the Lord of Pengging, located near present day Kartasura, was in fact one of Majapahit`s most influential nobles.Candi Sukuh, which is only a short distance from Pengging, was built during the Majapahit era, and in an area that was under the control and influence of Majapahit. To draw a distinction between Sukuh`s Central Javanese location and an East Javanese center of power is a fallacious exercise.

I have seen objects similar to the one under discussion that were discovered in Central Jawa, I have also seen such objects that were discovered in East Jawa.

Why should it be necessary for these objects to have originated from some outside source?

Did the Javanese people not have a need for tools throughout history?

And would they not have developed tools suitable to their needs?

David, the figures shown at Sukuh with these type of implements are---as near as I can recall---not noblemen. The mention I made of noblemen was in relation to the figures depicted in the stele, one acting as smith, the other operating the bellows.

If we forget all about the fact that this is an archaic iron implement. Lets say we stumbled across it in a local hardware store. What use might we be able to put it to? I would suggest that the hooked blade would be perfect for lopping small branches from trees, as with a pruning hook, or the modern Javanese bendo, and the axe-like section of the blade would be perfect for chopping those branches into smaller pieces.The form of this implement would make it a very useful tool.

10th May 2006, 09:21 AM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	''In case you are assuming anything related to my culture, then please don’t, since you have probably no clue what my cultural background is.'' by culture, i meant the weapon and not yourself (how can i presume where you are from?). some of us are caught up collecting and studying other 'cultures' and so posts like this which involve someone having to prove his point are very informative for us, as you take the breakdown of your opinion to a very basic level. as collectors we need to know why something is fake, or what makes it real. its all a learning curve. your point was valid, but it needed more explanation for a novice to understand and accept, which was nicely provided.

10th May 2006, 10:16 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Quote:- "Pangeran Datu , regarding the rectangular tang; Early versions of the keris (Keris budha) have a similar tang. Some believe (forgot where I found that) that the earlier shape tang indicated that it wasn’t originally used as a trusting weapon, but more as a slash and cut weapon (borabodur shows some relief where the keris is held in an upper arm grip as well). So the square tang kept the blade from turning in his hilt when the goal was hit. " In "Origin of the Keris etc," which may be found here:- http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/maisey/index.html I wrote the following. Quote:- "Further evidence that the keris buda was used as, and developed from a weapon used with an overarm stabbing action, is to be found in the tang. The tang of the keris buda is of square section. Such a tang was necessary to prevent the blade from turning in the handle, something very undesirable in a weapon used with a powerful overarm, downwards stabbing action. Conversely, the tang of the modern keris is round, which allows adjustment of the orientation of the blade to the grip, to suit the individual user, a desirable feature of the keris used as a thrusting weapon, which is unimportant where the weapon is used overarm." I am not aware that any researcher has proposed that the square tang demonstrated that the proto-type keris was used as a slashing weapon. In fact, I consider that such use would be highly unlikely, as the proto-type keris was much shorter than the modern keris, and there are no monumental depictions of any object even vaguely resembling a keris, being used as a slashing weapon. The relief carvings where overarm use of the proto-type keris can be seen are at Candi Prambanan. There is no representation of any keris or keris-like weapon or object at Candi Borobudur

10th May 2006, 10:29 AM	#4
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Thank you for a very interesting discussion, there is a great deal to consider here. Please excuse my novice question here but is it easier to forge a square tang or a round tang, because it would seem easier to make a round hole than a square hole in the piece of wood that is used as a handle. Perhaps there is a reason other than the function of the item that determines some of its physical characteristics? DrD

10th May 2006, 02:39 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Yes, it probably is easier to forge square than round. At least it is quicker. However, I would put it to you that form follows function. The job is identified, and the tool is produced to do the job. If we want a handle to turn easily, we provide a round tang. If we do not want a handle to turn, we provide a tang with sides.

10th May 2006, 02:47 PM	#6
Pangeran Datu Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 79	Just to put in a further "two-bob's", one must remember that the kudi is a traditional implement of the WHOLE of Java and Madura, while the Kujang is a traditional implement of West Java only. Because of the similarity in shape, it is not surprising that in West Java, the difference between the two implements is somewhat esoteric. I have just looked at an old and small photo of part of the Sumedang collection. It shows blades of similar shapes but with many variations, attached to ceremonial lances. Digressing to tangs; as far as I know, there are four types of pesi/tang for kerises: - round - round at the ganja end and becoming square at the hilt end - round at the ganja end and becoming flat with a hole at the hilt end (lika a needle) - twisted, like a corkscrew From what I know of the manufacturing process, it would not make much difference whether one makes the tang round or rectangular, but then, neither am I an Empu nor a metallurgist. I apologise if I have made things more convoluted.

10th May 2006, 07:41 PM	#7
doecon Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 63	Maisey thanks for sharing, again. I was a bit off with the location of the relief, but thanks for correcting me. Regarding the square tang, I agree indeed that it’s for blade stability. (Its probably easier to create as well). I have indeed read our article, but I came to a different conclusion. Combination of a larger tang and a square tang would be optimal for any (half) circular movement (up-down or sideways) with the arm (or arms), in my opinion this includes “slashing”. (many slashing weapons do have a square tang, right?). This doesn’t include the keris budha, of course, since it seems rather useless to slash with a short blade. Mentioning the item being a possible axe helped a lot. I honestly didn’t see that before. After some quick and rough research I came across a “axe-dagger” or “axe-knife” which has very similar features, originating from the Gujarat area India. (Java was a regular destination for traders from the Gujarat area in those days, shipments included iron and damaststeel). The axe I’m referring to is called Bhuj (after the city) or Kutti (Kuttai means to cut). It has a tang and is placed on a larger stick (3 times bladesize) so it indicates a doublehand grip..and indeed used for “circular movements”. It comes very near this actual example, but I have to admit that the one in the Sukuh relief has better resemblance (maybe the tip of mine has indeed broken off). It also explains why the tang is rather long and maybe…just maybe..it sounds a bit similar to Kudi (which is probably a late cousin of this blade) I do not think the name “wedung” is proper for this blade, but I haven’t found a better one yet myself. So I guess its kudi, till proven better BI: sorry for the misunderstanding Drdavid: A round hole is indeed easier to make in a smaller pommel, so probably a smaller pommel required a round tang as well. Good point. Pangeran: Thanks for your comments, I stick to “Kudi” for this blade, but as mentioned probably an early form, looking forward however to see the “needle” tang.

11th May 2006, 12:39 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Regarding round tangs and tangs with sides:- if you are going to forge round, you draw down to square first, so a tang with sides is faster to forge, however, the tang in a modern keris is not forged round, it is made round by stock removal.What I wrote on the tang of Buda style keris was only intended to apply to those implements. One may be able to extend reasoning into another dimension, but my comments were specific to the keris Buda alone. The implement under discussion cannot be named with any certainty, nor can the suggestion of a possible name be discounted. The language we are dealing with is Old Javanese, which has not been in use since the 1600`s. In Old Javanese one of the words for an axe is "wedun(g)". This implement may be a wedun(g), or it may not be. Certainly it bears no similarity to the knife that we presently know as a wedung, but this modern knife is purely ceremonial in function, indicating the willingness of the wearer to cut a way through the jungle for his lord.However, it is not valid to discount a name, nor attempt to affix with any certainty a name, for any archaic object, basing that attempt upon present day names for present day objects. Of course, for simplification of reference we can call this object anything we wish, but that does not mean that we are using the name by which it was called by the people who made and used it.However, in Old Javanese a kudhi was a knife with a curved blade used to cut grass and that had a bulge in the blade near to the handle; I do not think that this definition is suitable to describe the object under discussion. I have some difficulty in understanding why we need to give this object a name at all. It is obvious that we cannot name it correctly. Any bhuj that I have ever seen bears not the smallest resemblance to the object under discussion, in any case, there is little or no validity in comparison of a 19th century Indian object with a Javanese object from the far distant past. I do not understand why we are attempting to link this archaic Javanese object with objects from other places. It is a tool, or perhaps a tool/weapon, its origin is Jawa, and Jawa did have an indigenous culture of its own, prior to contact with the Indian subcontinent, and subsequently with other parts of the world. The nature of Javanese society and culture is that it has continually absorbed and modified input from other cultures, so it may well be that this humble little iron implement did have a progenitor from some other culture, or it could be that it is something uniquely Javanese. To settle this question would require an immense amount of very dedicated and intense research, at the end of which, no answer may be able to be provided.In any case, this object is one of a class of objects. These objects bear similarities in construction and form, but all are different. Based upon the objects of similar form that I have seen over the years, I am inclined to consider this type of object something that was fairly widely spread throughout Jawa for a considerable length of time. The Early Classical period in Jawa was to roughly 1000AD, after which there was a shift of power to East Jawa, we had a procession of kingdoms in East Jawa, culminating with Majapahit which was finished prior to 1525, the Islamic kingdoms followed Majapahit, and the move back to the interior came with Pajang, followed by the foundation of the House of Mataram, which is still with us today. From this, it can be seen that there is a continuity to Javanese culture that is not based simply upon the place where the ruler happens to be at any one time. In fact, the influence of the East Jawa kingdom of Majapahit extended into Central Jawa, and the Lord of Pengging, located near present day Kartasura, was in fact one of Majapahit`s most influential nobles.Candi Sukuh, which is only a short distance from Pengging, was built during the Majapahit era, and in an area that was under the control and influence of Majapahit. To draw a distinction between Sukuh`s Central Javanese location and an East Javanese center of power is a fallacious exercise. I have seen objects similar to the one under discussion that were discovered in Central Jawa, I have also seen such objects that were discovered in East Jawa. Why should it be necessary for these objects to have originated from some outside source? Did the Javanese people not have a need for tools throughout history? And would they not have developed tools suitable to their needs? David, the figures shown at Sukuh with these type of implements are---as near as I can recall---not noblemen. The mention I made of noblemen was in relation to the figures depicted in the stele, one acting as smith, the other operating the bellows. If we forget all about the fact that this is an archaic iron implement. Lets say we stumbled across it in a local hardware store. What use might we be able to put it to? I would suggest that the hooked blade would be perfect for lopping small branches from trees, as with a pruning hook, or the modern Javanese bendo, and the axe-like section of the blade would be perfect for chopping those branches into smaller pieces.The form of this implement would make it a very useful tool.