I know my Pappenheims...

fernando · 24th March 2020, 02:12 PM

The 'Tizona' on the top is surely decorative stuff.
All others look good ... to me.

ulfberth · 24th March 2020, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

The 'Tizona' on the top is surely decorative stuff.
All others look good ... to me.

Yes I agree , it might be interesting to find out more about the gilded sword this is 19th C but not my field.

ulfberth · 24th March 2020, 03:41 PM

here is a similar one it sold on guns international and was described as : Antique FRATERNAL Ceremonial SWORD

shayde78 · 24th March 2020, 06:53 PM

Well done, Dirk! That is very similar other than a few cosmetic embellishments.
As for the bare bade, it seems more rapier length, albeit with a missing tip. At least, it is longer that the 18th century smallsword I have in my collection. I haven't found any markings on it, but will let you know if I find any.

Thanks both!

fernando · 25th March 2020, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

... As for the bare blade, it seems more rapier length, albeit with a missing tip...

Yes, it sure does. Can you tell us its length ... excluding the tang ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

...At least, it is longer that the 18th century smallsword I have in my collection...

Sure thing; it could well be from the XVII century.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

... I haven't found any markings on it, but will let you know if I find any...

Look hard; some times there are (rather faded) inscriptions on these.

This blade could (could) have been mounted on a cup hilt sword, although that grip wrapping style is not so usual seen ... i guess; as also this could have been from a different sord.

shayde78 · 25th March 2020, 01:55 PM

I still don't see any markings on the unmounted blade. There may be some faint etchings under the oxidation, but I don't think so.

I've attached some side-by-side pics of the blade next to other items for comparison. The bottom is a small sword with rococo-style hilt that this forum estimated to be from around 1760, or so. The top is larger than a small sword that the forum estimated to be from early 1800s.

The tiles are each 12"x12", so the unmounted blade measures about 3 feet, 4 inches long. Another inch, or two might be presumed to have existed before the tip broke. That said, there is no unsharpened riccaso, so I suspect that limits the type of hilts that would have once been mounted. The tang meets the shoulder of the blade, and then it is sharpened almost directly past that juncture.

ulfberth · 25th March 2020, 04:12 PM

the blade is indeed to long for a small sword, it could very well be from a transitional rapier circa 1640 like the one in the picture from the Wallace Collection.
This type has no real ricasso like your's , I have a similar one in my collection its also a lot longer than a small sword. How wide is the blade at the widest point ? my blade is 2,2 cm wide and 104 long .

shayde78 · 26th March 2020, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

The 'Tizona' on the top is surely decorative stuff.
All others look good ... to me.

The more I think about it, the Tizona might be my favorite piece, in a way. I know it gave me pause that the whole lot were reproductions. I suspect that is why the only other bidder bowed out when they did. So, I owe a debt of gratitude to that humble 'decoration'.

fernando · 26th March 2020, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shayde78

The more I think about it, the Tizona might be my favorite piece, in a way. I know it gave me pause that the whole lot were reproductions. I suspect that is why the only other bidder bowed out when they did. So, I owe a debt of gratitude to that humble 'decoration'.

Some guys have all the luck

.

24th March 2020, 03:41 PM	#3
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 428	here is a similar one it sold on guns international and was described as : Antique FRATERNAL Ceremonial SWORD Attached Images

25th March 2020, 01:55 PM	#6
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	I still don't see any markings on the unmounted blade. There may be some faint etchings under the oxidation, but I don't think so. I've attached some side-by-side pics of the blade next to other items for comparison. The bottom is a small sword with rococo-style hilt that this forum estimated to be from around 1760, or so. The top is larger than a small sword that the forum estimated to be from early 1800s. The tiles are each 12"x12", so the unmounted blade measures about 3 feet, 4 inches long. Another inch, or two might be presumed to have existed before the tip broke. That said, there is no unsharpened riccaso, so I suspect that limits the type of hilts that would have once been mounted. The tang meets the shoulder of the blade, and then it is sharpened almost directly past that juncture. Attached Images

25th March 2020, 04:12 PM	#7
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 428	the blade is indeed to long for a small sword, it could very well be from a transitional rapier circa 1640 like the one in the picture from the Wallace Collection. This type has no real ricasso like your's , I have a similar one in my collection its also a lot longer than a small sword. How wide is the blade at the widest point ? my blade is 2,2 cm wide and 104 long . Attached Images Last edited by ulfberth; 25th March 2020 at 04:31 PM.

24th March 2020, 02:12 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The 'Tizona' on the top is surely decorative stuff. All others look good ... to me.

24th March 2020, 06:53 PM	#4
shayde78 Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 445	Well done, Dirk! That is very similar other than a few cosmetic embellishments. As for the bare bade, it seems more rapier length, albeit with a missing tip. At least, it is longer that the 18th century smallsword I have in my collection. I haven't found any markings on it, but will let you know if I find any. Thanks both!