Black stain spreading on keris during vinegar cleaning

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

What effect do you think sulphur and salt together might have on ferric material?

I know that it is used Alan but I don't understand how it works as both products are basically stable and inert
However I would propose the following chemical raction chain (just my assumption, no guarantee whatsoever): the salt (NaCl) may slightly react with the metal and produce ferric or ferrous chloride (Fe Cl3 or FeCl2, highly reactive and slightly acidic) and the sulphur may react with it and produce black iron sulphide (FeS) giving the "warangan" effect on the blade.
Regards

[jagabuwana]

Originally Posted by Jean

I know that it is used Alan but I don't understand how it works as both products are basically stable and inert
However I would propose the following chemical raction chain (just my assumption, no guarantee whatsoever): the salt (NaCl) may slightly react with the metal and produce ferric or ferrous chloride (Fe Cl3 or FeCl2, highly reactive and slightly acidic) and the sulphur may react with it and produce black iron sulphide (FeS) giving the "warangan" effect on the blade.
Regards

Yes I have attempted a stain using salt, rice water (i.e. the water that becomes cloudy after you rinse and soak rice in it) and sulphur, based off some info in previous posts on this forum.

Brushed it into a blade, covered it in cling/saran wrap. In a day it turned as black as squid ink. I freaked out after a bout a day or two thinking it would damage the blade, but it looked promising. I think had I left it, it would have done a better job.

Jean, what do you think the role of rice water (effectively starch) is in this method?

[Jean]

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

Jean, what do you think the role of rice water (effectively starch) is in this method?

I don't know Jaga, probably no chemical effect but getting a more homogeneous slurry? The black colour of the blade seems to indicate the presence of iron sulphide.
And I would say that sulphur and salt have an corrosive effect (chemical wear) rather than erosive (mechanical wear)?
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

Yes I have attempted a stain using salt, rice water (i.e. the water that becomes cloudy after you rinse and soak rice in it) and sulphur, based off some info in previous posts on this forum.

Brushed it into a blade, covered it in cling/saran wrap. In a day it turned as black as squid ink. I freaked out after a bout a day or two thinking it would damage the blade, but it looked promising. I think had I left it, it would have done a better job.

Any photos of this Jaga?

[jagabuwana]

Originally Posted by David

Any photos of this Jaga?

Here you go.

It's since been cleaned down to a bare white blade because I wasn't happy with it. But it was a promising result.

When I try it again I'll leave it for longer.

Recipe:

Rice water - I soaked 1 part jasmine rice in 2 parts water, and agitated it so that it became cloudy. I ended up with around half a cup.

Salt - I used regular cooking salt. Don't remember how much. Maybe half a teaspoon.

Sulphur - In the form of yellow powder off ebay. I think I used 2 teaspoons.

[Jean]

My own appreciation: Quite good cleaning results, some faint traces of rust visible on the sorsoran and ganja, about equivalent of what I get with vinegar but with slightly better pamor contrast.

[jagabuwana]

Originally Posted by Jean

My own appreciation: Quite good cleaning results, some faint traces of rust visible on the sorsoran and ganja, about equivalent of what I get with vinegar but with slightly better pamor contrast.

For me, it didn't go nearly as dark just using vinegar. Though if I could retain the slight contrasts that vinegar gives the blade, I would. I quite like it.

[A. G. Maisey]

I reckon that for the type of material it is, it is a pretty good job.

Long time since I used the rice water method, but I'm pretty certain that my rice water was produced by boiling rice in too much water, then draining the water off. Also, I left the blade in the slurry of sulphur + salt + rice water for (I think) about a week, it was wrapped in plastic, the original recipe called for wrapping in a palm leaf.

The sulphur would have been bought in a hardware or garden supplier, the salt would have been from the kitchen.

This was the result.

Incidentally, this blade was stained more than 60 years ago, it has been maintained by infrequent oiling during that time, and for the last +/- 50 years by oiling + a plastic sleeve.

[Rick]

[QUOTE=Jean, what do you think the role of rice water (effectively starch) is in this method?[/QUOTE]

Rice contains arsenic at a relatively high level compared to most other foods.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Rick

Rice contains arsenic at a relatively high level compared to most other foods.

Not sufficient to give any waragan effect IMO or all rice eaters would die in horrible circumstances as arsenic accumulates inside the body

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Rick

Rice contains arsenic at a relatively high level compared to most other foods.

Wikipedia, the source of all reliable information, states, "As arsenic is a natural element in soil, water, and air, the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) monitors the levels of arsenic in foods, particularly in rice products used commonly for infant food.[20] While growing, rice plants tend to absorb arsenic more readily than other food crops, requiring expanded testing by the FDA for possible arsenic-related risks associated with rice consumption in the United States.[20] In April 2016, the FDA proposed a limit of 100 parts per billion (ppb) for inorganic arsenic in infant rice cereal and other foods to minimize exposure of infants to arsenic.[20]."

Thus its seems if the key to the rice water stain process is arsenic, where the rice is grown would greatly affect the quality of the stain. So possibly the region in which this technique originated it was highly effective due to very high concentrations of arsenic in the soil. The downside is that the local population's health may have been compromised.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

In April 2016, the FDA proposed a limit of 100 parts per billion (ppb) for inorganic arsenic in infant rice cereal and other foods to minimize exposure of infants to arsenic.[20]."

100 ppb is equivalent to 0.1 PPM (part per million) so a very very low concentration. Even if the arsenic content in the rice water is higher than in the rice itself, I doubt it very much that it could be sufficient for creating any warangan effect.
For comparison, the arsenic concentration in realgar (arsenic sulphide ore, the most commonly used chemicals for warangan treatment) amounts to several percents so thousands time more than in the rice (one percent is equivalent to 10,000 PPM)....

[kai]

I agree that even possibly elevated amounts of arsenic in rice are a red herring for the salt+sulphur recipe. While the salt is acting as a corrosive agent, the stain will result from reactive sulphur compounds.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

Cupla thangs Mickey.

Number one:- I'm Aussie. In general, Aussies from my generation and before tend not to take very much, very seriously. I take a few things relatively seriously, but mostly the tongue is edging towards the cheek.

Number two:- retirement is a ticket to hell, and I'm in no hurry to get there. You stop work, you go rotten, then you die. Nobody can afford to retire.

Number three:- the "Living Legend" with all due apologies, I've never heard such nonsense. I started younger than most people, I've continued longer than most people, my debt to the true Legends who taught me is enormous. I'm no Legend, just lucky. Right time, right place, that's all.

As for the rice water stain, warangan works better. That one I've shown a picture of is better than a couple of others I tried later. Laboratory quality arsenic trioxide works best --- problem these days is that without the required qualification and certificate, you cannot get it.

[milandro]

Originally Posted by jagabuwana

Jean, what do you think the role of rice water (effectively starch) is in this method?

reviving this question

Rice water should work, in itself, not because it has starch (which certainly has) but because it contains Arsenic.

but i see other people in this thread have commented on the low amount of arsenic in rice.

[A. G. Maisey]

Scroll down to page #19

https://aiccm.org.au/wp-content/uplo...June2007_0.pdf

[jagabuwana]

Originally Posted by milandro

reviving this question

Rice water should work, in itself, not because it has starch (which certainly has) but because it contains Arsenic.

but i see other people in this thread have commented on the low amount of arsenic in rice.

There's trace amounts of arsenic in all kinds of foods, though rice has a higher amount (within the confines of safe).

Maybe the combination of sulfur and some arsenic is what does it, with sulfur acting like a kind of multiplier which allows for even small concentrations of arsenic to be effective. But this is a wild guess.

If I have some time I'd be interested to try adding some sulfur in with some ineffective realgar I bought off the internet and see if it yields a better result compared to just realgar alone, using the brush stain method.

[milandro]

this seems to be a possibility, along with light and temperature being the activator of the process.

There is a lot of empiricism involved in this and very little science. The person who washes my krises all of a sudden went through a phase when the warangan no longer responded en was ineffective. Now he says everything is back to normal.

I don’t think he knows why.

If rice water with minute amounts of arsenic combined to sulphur produces modest amounts of arsenic sulfide and these stain the blade even in modest amounts that may very well be the reason why the salt-sulphur method works

[Anthony G.]

Originally Posted by milandro

this seems to be a possibility, along with light and temperature being the activator of the process.

There is a lot of empiricism involved in this and very little science. The person who washes my krises all of a sudden went through a phase when the warangan no longer responded en was ineffective. Now he says everything is back to normal.

I don’t think he knows why.

If rice water with minute amounts of arsenic combined to sulphur produces modest amounts of arsenic sulfide and these stain the blade even in modest amounts that may very well be the reason why the salt-sulphur method works

I was told by a friend who said that temperature of the surrounding during the time of 'washing' plays a role/part.

[David]

Originally Posted by milandro

There is a lot of empiricism involved in this and very little science. The person who washes my krises all of a sudden went through a phase when the warangan no longer responded en was ineffective. Now he says everything is back to normal.

I don’t think he knows why.

As stated by Alan above, not all realgar is equal. So if you guy uses realgar as his source for arsenic it is quite possible he just obtained an ineffective batch. In it's naturally sourced form there is just no consistency in strength. That is why it is great if you can get a hold of the lab quality arsenic trioxide. It will always be the same strength each and every time.

[milandro]

from another thread

Originally Posted by Bob A

Has anyone considered or actually used antimony trioxide in place of arsenic trioxide for the purpose of staining keris?

From what I can cursorily discover, it is considerably less toxic than the arsenic compound, though of course not without risk.