Black stain spreading on keris during vinegar cleaning

A. G. Maisey · 18th March 2020, 02:56 AM

Jaga, I understand where you're coming from with this, and I'm of the same opinion, but only because I've used vinegar for years & years now and never had even the hint of any sort of negative result.

However, if I was new to the game I'd be looking at everything, including Coca-Cola and tomato juice. It is the nature of human kind that most people like to learn by their own mistakes.

That said, Marco used a very short term hands-on method with his citric acid. People in Solo have been using citric for years, and citric acid is what a lot of people in Solo use. Bi-carb used as a cleaner is great stuff to remove stains from tea cups and coffee cups. Bi-carb is really wonderful stuff for lots of things.

Lemon juice is in fact pretty high in citric acid to begin with. Used as a paste of bi-carb with a toothbrush I reckon it would be pretty effective. But even so, I'll stay with vinegar because of my experience with its impeccable record and because it is so easy and non-time consuming to use.

Actually, the acid in vinegar is acetic acid, and that is pretty strong stuff, but there is usually only about 5% or 6% in household white vinegar, the rest is water.

Personally, I would encourage all beginners to try everything that they can think of and to learn by their own mistakes:- there is nothing as sobering as destroying something that cost you money, by failing to learn from the mistakes of others.

apolaki · 18th March 2020, 03:29 AM

The black stain has spread throughout the blade, it is like infected the blade.

A. G. Maisey · 18th March 2020, 04:10 AM

Nothing is infected Apo, I'm looking at normal here.

Pick off the hard rust with a small, sharp tool.

Get some coarse steel wool and some powder sink cleaner, give it a good scrub under running water.

Dry it and put it back in the vinegar.

No fluid is magic, it is just a substance that helps you to get the job done. If I look at the pics of this blade I can still see a lot of what appears to be rust. I suggest you pick this off, scrub it off, as I have advised above.

When the thing is clean, dry it thoroughly and then either stain it or spray with WD40.

jagabuwana · 18th March 2020, 07:47 AM

I hear that, Alan. I did not intend for my note to be a discouragement to try others, only to share my experience with citric acid.

Not sure if I'm glad I made the mistake, but I'm glad I learned from it.

I have a tendency to be quite conservative and unwilling to try other things after I make a regrettable mistake, so thank you for the reminder to keep trying other stuff I come across.

~~~

Apolaki, I've seen black stains like those when I was cleaning my Tuban-style pamor sanak keris - especially what is seen on the cleaner side of the blade. I just put it back in the cleaning solution (vinegar) and took it out to brush with a soft toothbrush more often. Eventually it came good. It's still quite clean.
I wouldn't worry too much, as Alan said just try to clean it again because there is rust on it.

A. G. Maisey · 18th March 2020, 08:19 AM

One of these days Jaga, I'm going to try Coca-Cola on a keris --- and a few other things.

There are some particularly nasty concoctions that some people in Jawa use make blades look old. Some of these devil's brews can eat a keris over night.

It is, I believe, meritorious to try different things, but it is even more so to try them slowly, gently and with care.

Mickey the Finn · 23rd March 2020, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Personally, I would encourage all beginners to try everything that they can think of and to learn by their own mistakes:- there is nothing as sobering as destroying something that cost you money, by failing to learn from the mistakes of others.

It has been, for about 23 years now, a maxim of mine (inspired by a Clint Eastwood movie, if memory serves) that, "If anything goes wrong, it'll be because of my mistake, and not anybody else's"; alternatively: "Nothing learns a lesson like my own tuition fees". The last mentioned quote is entirely my own, as far as I know. This is not to say that someone else may not have come up with it independently prior to myself and/or without my knowledge.
If anyone reading this feels like they must make a choice, I would urge such a one to heed the counsel of Mr. Maisey, for his is the voice of experience longer and broader than my own.
I'm thankful to God Almighty that He, in His Merciful Omniscience, has (thus far) protected irreplaceable antiquities and cultural artifacts from becoming the wreckage along the wayside of my educational journey.
There is often something to be gained from reading the notes of those who have taken the course before.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd March 2020, 09:48 AM

Thank you Mickey, that's nice.

Can I put it in my resume?

Mickey the Finn · 27th March 2020, 01:35 PM

Yes, you certainly may. I would be most honoured if you did so, and extremely grateful if you were to send me a copy.
Your query did inspire, not a question, but a brief moment of speculation of shorter duration than the time it will take for me to write the general outline of "how it went". I'll write it out regardless, as it's currently 04:08 Pacific Daylight Saving Time, and writing it out will enable me to reduce the time I'll otherwise spend curled up sleepless in a foetal position.
A résumé, or curriculum vitae, is generally composed by an applicant for a job. It's my belief that there exist certain "callings" from which one simply does not retire, although one might possibly cease to "work" in an official capacity in exchange for remuneration. The calling of a minister of religion might be considered one such calling. I know of one man in the legal profession, well past the age when most people in the "western world" hang up their hats, who is still "at it", although officially "semi-retired" on his law firm's webpage. I'm aware of one local teacher of mathematics who is upwards of 80 years of age, who has stated neither desire nor intention of retiring. Retirement is a luxury unavailable, if not totally unknown, to the majority of the people who labour (literally and/or figuratively) under the sun. Watched a program on T.V. a few years back (might've been CNN's "Anthony Bourdain: Parts Unknown", and some elderly Sicilian woman, when asked if she did not want to retire, retorted, "And then what? Die"?
I do not believe that you're currently employed in any official or unofficial capacity (although that doesn't necessarily mean you no longer do "the thing you do".
Four hours ago I had no more than two "wee drams" of Ballantine's Finest (I didn't measure precisely, but the level in the mickey hasn't even gone down past the rounds of the shoulders). They haven't clouded my judgement, though they may have provided the lubrication for me to say (with no fear of exaggeration) that, in addition to having Living Legend status, you're the undisputed and undefeated heavyweight champion here. If there's any place worth your being on the payroll, it's they who'll solicit you. You've no need to go knocking.
Just an aside: I often can't quite tell if you've got your tongue planted firmly in your cheek, or whether you're being deadpan serious. It may be the fault of the communication medium, or it's possible I'm either dense or thick.
Sincerely and Respectfully,
Mickey
Postscript: That looks like a really good result from rice water+sulphur+salt; I believe I may try that myself, on a laminated steel knife of recent manufacture, before any keris kamardikan by Mpu Tanpa Nama. I certainly wouldn't experiment on any keris Djeno, even if I had one in need of stain.

Jean · 18th March 2020, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apolaki

The black stain has spread throughout the blade, it is like infected the blade.

Ouch, I can clearly see the coronavirus effect indeed, beware!

Marcokeris · 18th March 2020, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Ouch, I can clearly see the coronavirus effect indeed, beware!

A. G. Maisey · 18th March 2020, 10:18 PM

Actually Jean, sulphur and salt has an erosive effect.

I once saw a keris blade taken from a bath of sulphur and salt, it had been in the bath for about a week and had been forgotten. More than 50% of the blade had been eaten.

Why?

The sulphur and salt was mixed with water so it was a slurry, but these two things are opposites.

I do not understand.

18th March 2020, 03:29 AM	#2
apolaki Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 160	The black stain has spread throughout the blade, it is like infected the blade. Attached Images

27th March 2020, 01:35 PM	#8
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	Yes, you certainly may. I would be most honoured if you did so, and extremely grateful if you were to send me a copy. Your query did inspire, not a question, but a brief moment of speculation of shorter duration than the time it will take for me to write the general outline of "how it went". I'll write it out regardless, as it's currently 04:08 Pacific Daylight Saving Time, and writing it out will enable me to reduce the time I'll otherwise spend curled up sleepless in a foetal position. A résumé, or curriculum vitae, is generally composed by an applicant for a job. It's my belief that there exist certain "callings" from which one simply does not retire, although one might possibly cease to "work" in an official capacity in exchange for remuneration. The calling of a minister of religion might be considered one such calling. I know of one man in the legal profession, well past the age when most people in the "western world" hang up their hats, who is still "at it", although officially "semi-retired" on his law firm's webpage. I'm aware of one local teacher of mathematics who is upwards of 80 years of age, who has stated neither desire nor intention of retiring. Retirement is a luxury unavailable, if not totally unknown, to the majority of the people who labour (literally and/or figuratively) under the sun. Watched a program on T.V. a few years back (might've been CNN's "Anthony Bourdain: Parts Unknown", and some elderly Sicilian woman, when asked if she did not want to retire, retorted, "And then what? Die"? I do not believe that you're currently employed in any official or unofficial capacity (although that doesn't necessarily mean you no longer do "the thing you do". Four hours ago I had no more than two "wee drams" of Ballantine's Finest (I didn't measure precisely, but the level in the mickey hasn't even gone down past the rounds of the shoulders). They haven't clouded my judgement, though they may have provided the lubrication for me to say (with no fear of exaggeration) that, in addition to having *Living Legend* status, you're the undisputed and undefeated heavyweight champion here. If there's any place worth your being on the payroll, it's they who'll solicit you. You've no need to go knocking. Just an aside: I often can't quite tell if you've got your tongue planted firmly in your cheek, or whether you're being deadpan serious. It may be the fault of the communication medium, or it's possible I'm either dense or thick. Sincerely and Respectfully, Mickey Postscript: That looks like a really good result from rice water+sulphur+salt; I believe I may try that myself, on a laminated steel knife of recent manufacture, before any keris kamardikan by Mpu Tanpa Nama. I certainly wouldn't experiment on any keris Djeno, even if I had one in need of stain. Last edited by Mickey the Finn; 27th March 2020 at 02:06 PM. Reason: Postscript.

18th March 2020, 02:56 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Jaga, I understand where you're coming from with this, and I'm of the same opinion, but only because I've used vinegar for years & years now and never had even the hint of any sort of negative result. However, if I was new to the game I'd be looking at everything, including Coca-Cola and tomato juice. It is the nature of human kind that most people like to learn by their own mistakes. That said, Marco used a very short term hands-on method with his citric acid. People in Solo have been using citric for years, and citric acid is what a lot of people in Solo use. Bi-carb used as a cleaner is great stuff to remove stains from tea cups and coffee cups. Bi-carb is really wonderful stuff for lots of things. Lemon juice is in fact pretty high in citric acid to begin with. Used as a paste of bi-carb with a toothbrush I reckon it would be pretty effective. But even so, I'll stay with vinegar because of my experience with its impeccable record and because it is so easy and non-time consuming to use. Actually, the acid in vinegar is acetic acid, and that is pretty strong stuff, but there is usually only about 5% or 6% in household white vinegar, the rest is water. Personally, I would encourage all beginners to try everything that they can think of and to learn by their own mistakes:- there is nothing as sobering as destroying something that cost you money, by failing to learn from the mistakes of others.

18th March 2020, 04:10 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Nothing is infected Apo, I'm looking at normal here. Pick off the hard rust with a small, sharp tool. Get some coarse steel wool and some powder sink cleaner, give it a good scrub under running water. Dry it and put it back in the vinegar. No fluid is magic, it is just a substance that helps you to get the job done. If I look at the pics of this blade I can still see a lot of what appears to be rust. I suggest you pick this off, scrub it off, as I have advised above. When the thing is clean, dry it thoroughly and then either stain it or spray with WD40.

18th March 2020, 07:47 AM	#4
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 292	I hear that, Alan. I did not intend for my note to be a discouragement to try others, only to share my experience with citric acid. Not sure if I'm glad I made the mistake, but I'm glad I learned from it. I have a tendency to be quite conservative and unwilling to try other things after I make a regrettable mistake, so thank you for the reminder to keep trying other stuff I come across. ~~~ Apolaki, I've seen black stains like those when I was cleaning my Tuban-style pamor sanak keris - especially what is seen on the cleaner side of the blade. I just put it back in the cleaning solution (vinegar) and took it out to brush with a soft toothbrush more often. Eventually it came good. It's still quite clean. I wouldn't worry too much, as Alan said just try to clean it again because there is rust on it.

18th March 2020, 08:19 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	One of these days Jaga, I'm going to try Coca-Cola on a keris --- and a few other things. There are some particularly nasty concoctions that some people in Jawa use make blades look old. Some of these devil's brews can eat a keris over night. It is, I believe, meritorious to try different things, but it is even more so to try them slowly, gently and with care.

23rd March 2020, 09:48 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Thank you Mickey, that's nice. Can I put it in my resume?

18th March 2020, 10:18 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Actually Jean, sulphur and salt has an erosive effect. I once saw a keris blade taken from a bath of sulphur and salt, it had been in the bath for about a week and had been forgotten. More than 50% of the blade had been eaten. Why? The sulphur and salt was mixed with water so it was a slurry, but these two things are opposites. I do not understand.