Ottoman Hancer for translation

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Just because "most people think that this type of dagger is Albanian" does make it necessarily true?!

Also, stylistically they don't have almost anything Albanian or as a matter of fact from the Balkans...

(yet they have very much Persian influence in shape, decoration an script).

Yes Marius we are on the same page.

As I wrote "These daggers were very popular with Albanian mercenaries Bashi Bazouk. You can see many paintings and engravings with them carrying these daggers".

But I don't recall any book saying that these daggers are Albanians. I think it's a collectors / dealers thing only...

I disagree with you about the script and decorations, they are Turkish Ottoman.

Last but not least I have no idea about the blade, yes you are right it looks like a Persian blade with a central ridge but then what about jambiya are they also Persian?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I disagree with you about the script and decorations, they are Turkish Ottoman.

Nope!

Again misunderstanding!

Of course they are Turkish Ottoman (that's what I said even in my original posting)... but they are similar with those found on some Persian blades, especially stylistically...

[Kubur]

I have a blade like that but i don't think these blades are similar to your Syrian piece.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I have a blade like that but i don't think these blades are similar to your Syrian piece.

It depends how do you look at them.

They all have strongly curved blades with central rib.
They all have similar koftgari, in terms of geometry and style.
They all have similar I-shaped ivory hilts...
... so they are similar.

Mine is much larger and has a broader blade.
Mine has on one side some writing.
Mine has a hilt with some strangely oriented protrusions...
... so they are different.

Take your pick!

[Kubur]

In his book Elgood said Kurdish/Turkish dagger...

By the way, not all the weapons in his book are from the Balkans nor Greeks...

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Kubur

In his book Elgood said Kurdish/Turkish dagger...

By the way, not all the weapons in his book are from the Balkans nor Greeks...

Turkish or Kurdish, yes, but considering the quality of workmanship and style of decoration I would say much more Turkish.

I couldn't agree more that not all the weapons in Elgood's book are Greek or from the Balkans!

Most of his geographical attribution is purely anecdotal. If the owner or dealer of the weapon said it is Greek, he listed it as Greek...
Absolutely no stylistical analysis.

Then... many collectors take his assertions as the absolute truth, and so we end up with absolute falacies that in time became the universally accepted truth.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Most of his geographical attribution is purely anecdotal. If the owner or dealer of the weapon said it is Greek, he listed it as Greek...
Absolutely no stylistical analysis.

Then... many collectors take his assertions as the absolute truth, and so we end up with absolute falacies that in time became the universally accepted truth.

Waittttt a minute!
I didn't say that, and I think it's another misunderstanding!

To me Elgood is extremely reliable, probably one of the best scholar in the field. He is very honest too when he doesn't know he says nothing.

The problem is the people who are reading his books.

I don't even think that they read carefully and as you said if they see any photo in a book on Greek weapons it must be Greek...

[Interested Party]

I've been thinking about this picture in Yurij A. Miller's "Caucasian Arms" since this thread started. Very similar blade and hilt designs. I don't have the expertise to evaluate the koftgari of the two. Beautiful piece by the way!

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

I've been thinking about this picture in Yurij A. Miller's "Caucasian Arms" since this thread started. Very similar blade and hilt designs. I don't have the expertise to evaluate the koftgari of the two. Beautiful piece by the way!

Thanks IP, now this thread starts to be extremely interesting. I have this wonderfull book and I have several comments:

If you look at page 73, you have an Ottoman Turkish kama with a very typical Turkish blade, then again the scabbard is decorated with a row of turquoises. The same page 81 the scabbard is decorated with a row of turquoises and rubies. The author said traditional "Georgian manner with turquoises"... So Motan my friend I think that you have to reconsider the idea to link turquoise to Iraki/ Kurdish/ Arab march daggers... You have turquoises decorations in Georgia and also in Uzbekistan...

Second the author said that these daggers are Georgian from Tiflis. But he also admits that they are made "in Turkish style" with Turkish blades, he wrote "first class Turkish bulat steel". And here I think Marius you are right, the author assumes that these daggers are Caucasian because of the niello silver work of the scabbard (and silver stamp) and because these daggers are from the Hermitage Museum...

To me these daggers are Ottoman Turkish then maybe they went to Tiflis and got a new scabbard or a guy from Tiflis brought some Caucasian silver and worked in Istanbul...

Exciting discussion...