Ottoman Hancer for translation

[motan]

Hi Kubur,
I mostly agree with you. The problem starts with the concept of Ottoman weapons. Turkey must have had centers of production, but weapons were made throughout the Ottoman empire, often in local style, or sometimes in local style imitating another local style of a different region. So, is a pre-wwi Syrian dagger per definition Ottman? Is a Kindjal made in Damascus Caucasian, Syrian or Ottoman?
You are right about Damascus. It was a center of high quality production before 1800, but very few daggers of high quality are designated as Syrian. Certainly this one is of high quality and if it says "made in Damascus", why should I not believe that?
As for the date, most of you think these daggers must be from the 19th century. Still, the blades do not look like Persian, they are made of high quality wootz, like the court daggers. Does anyone know centers of wootz production west of Persia? To me, the numbers could be (1)195 = 1781. Then it is what it looks like. Inverted 6 is possible if this is not a date, because (1)695 is still in the future.
Anyway, it looks like an Albanian type dagger made in Damascus, most probably ordered by an Albanian commander named Osman in late 18th. century. As for the question of Albanian type vs Persian/Caucasian. mmm. I don't know.

[kwiatek]

It does not really look like a 1 or a 2, but it must be surely meant to be one or the other. I would go with whatever stylistically fits the piece best, but I can see already that that is contentious.

It’s likely to indeed be a date as the word underneath appears to be سنة meaning ‘year’

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by motan

Anyway, it looks like an Albanian type dagger made in Damascus, most probably ordered by an Albanian commander named Osman in late 18th. century. As for the question of Albanian type vs Persian/Caucasian. mmm. I don't know.

Only that Osman is a typical Turkish NOT Albanian name and...

... stylistically these daggers have nothing Albanian, but they are very similar to the Persian or Kurdish khanjars.


PS: The blade is of wootz Damascus steel but it needs some cleaning and re-etching.
The absence of documented evidence that wootz was produced West of Persia does not mean there weren't any. And even if wootz was not produced West of Persia, I am certain that Turkish and Arab smiths knew how to work wootz, whether it was produced locally or imported from Persia/India. And this blade is a clear example of this.

[motan]

Hi Mariusgmioc,
I do not disagree with either you or Kubur, but just want to cast doubt on some conventional notions that have little evidence in support and to demonstrate the problem of Ottoman identity.
Just as an example, you say that Osman (Othman) is not an Albanian name. Well, it isn't, but many soldiers, Janissaries and Mamlukes took on a Turkish or Arab names.
The fact remains that most people think that this type of dagger is Albanian, but we already know that some, like yours, were not made in Albania.
Another problem is that this type of dagger, as well as good Kurdish daggers and some Iraqi daggers have wootz blades of this style, which is NOT Persian of the same period (late Qajar) of good+ quality. All of those are attributed to the 19th century. This is in disagreement with the notion that wootz production has stopped is Southern India in early 19th c and was non-existent or forgotten in all other areas.
To sum it up: very nice dagger , very rare to find provenance on such daggers, therefore extra special. For the rest, it is all open.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by motan

Hi Mariusgmioc,
I do not disagree with either you or Kubur, but just want to cast doubt on some conventional notions that have little evidence in support and to demonstrate the problem of Ottoman identity.
Just as an example, you say that Osman (Othman) is not an Albanian name. Well, it isn't, but many soldiers, Janissaries and Mamlukes took on a Turkish or Arab names.
The fact remains that most people think that this type of dagger is Albanian, but we already know that some, like yours, were not made in Albania.
Another problem is that this type of dagger, as well as good Kurdish daggers and some Iraqi daggers have wootz blades of this style, which is NOT Persian of the same period (late Qajar) of good+ quality. All of those are attributed to the 19th century. This is in disagreement with the notion that wootz production has stopped is Southern India in early 19th c and was non-existent or forgotten in all other areas.
To sum it up: very nice dagger , very rare to find provenance on such daggers, therefore extra special. For the rest, it is all open.

PRECISELY! Now, as much as I would like to disagree, I simply cannot find anything in your comment to nit pick and have to agree with everything you said... but...
... there is always a but...

Just because "most people think that this type of dagger is Albanian" does make it necessarily true?!

Also, stylistically they don't have almost anything Albanian or as a matter of fact from the Balkans... (yet they have very much Persian influence in shape, decoration an script).

So... citing from guess who...

... "just want to cast doubt on some conventional notions that have little evidence in support and to demonstrate the problem of" Albanian identity.

Moreover, as you said, many of them are sporting nice wootz blades which are NOT known to be the work of any Albanian smiths as wootz production was pretty much restricted to India and Middle East...
... and, again as you said, they are NOT the high contrast Persian wootz, nor the finer patterned Indian Wootz but a lower contrast wootz of uncertain origin... that happens to be very common in some Turkish blades.

see another example of such lower contrast wootz at the link below

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25477

Now, how many examples of such daggers do we have with certain (not anecdotal) Albanian origin?!

And even if production of wootz has stopped in India in early 19th century, does it mean it stopped everywhere... at precisely the same time?!
Or the disappearance of wootz production stretched over more decades as old wootz ingots were still abundantly available, and there was a pretty large pool of old wootz blades that could be reworked.

PS: Even if they didn't know to produce new Valyrian steel anymore, they were still capable to rework old blades... right?!

[Hombre]

mariusgmioc, a very nice dagger and something to be very proud to own.

/Stefan

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Just because "most people think that this type of dagger is Albanian" does make it necessarily true?!

Also, stylistically they don't have almost anything Albanian or as a matter of fact from the Balkans...

(yet they have very much Persian influence in shape, decoration an script).

Yes Marius we are on the same page.

As I wrote "These daggers were very popular with Albanian mercenaries Bashi Bazouk. You can see many paintings and engravings with them carrying these daggers".

But I don't recall any book saying that these daggers are Albanians. I think it's a collectors / dealers thing only...

I disagree with you about the script and decorations, they are Turkish Ottoman.

Last but not least I have no idea about the blade, yes you are right it looks like a Persian blade with a central ridge but then what about jambiya are they also Persian?

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I disagree with you about the script and decorations, they are Turkish Ottoman.

Nope!

Again misunderstanding!

Of course they are Turkish Ottoman (that's what I said even in my original posting)... but they are similar with those found on some Persian blades, especially stylistically...

[Kubur]

I have a blade like that but i don't think these blades are similar to your Syrian piece.

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by motan

As for the date, most of you think these daggers must be from the 19th century. Still, the blades do not look like Persian, they are made of high quality wootz, like the court daggers. Does anyone know centers of wootz production west of Persia? To me, the numbers could be (1)195 = 1781. Then it is what it looks like. Inverted 6 is possible if this is not a date, because (1)695 is still in the future.

You are right, I remember now another dagger identical to this one and dated from the late 18th c.

Marius I forgot the most important: your dagger is gorgeous.