Ottoman Hancer for translation

Drabant1701 · 14th March 2020, 04:27 PM

Very nice! It looks older then 1878 to me, I dont really see 295, more like 695 or 195

mariusgmioc · 14th March 2020, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drabant1701

Very nice! It looks older then 1878 to me, I dont really see 295, more like 695 or 195

You're right! More like 695...

Thanks!

Kubur · 14th March 2020, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

You're right! More like 695...

Thanks!

No I think you are right Marius 1295

For sure it's not 1195; plus the other number 1695 doesnt make any sense.

mariusgmioc · 14th March 2020, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

No I think you are right Marius 1295

For sure it's not 1195; plus the other number 1695 doesnt make any sense.

Yep, '295 makes sense, but the 2 is written wrongly. Here below are the Arabic numerals from 1 to 9 and 0.

١٢٣٤٥٦٧٨٩٠

ariel · 15th March 2020, 12:03 AM

This configuration of a handle is often attributed to Albania.
Any evidence pro or con?

Kubur · 15th March 2020, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

This configuration of a handle is often attributed to Albania.
Any evidence pro or con?

Pro
These daggers were very popular with Albanian mercenaries Bashi Bazouk.
You can see many paintings and engravings with them carrying these daggers.

Con
These daggers were in fact Ottoman Turkish.
Nevertheless according to Kwiatek's translation, some of them were made in the provinces like Syria.

Kubur

mariusgmioc · 15th March 2020, 10:56 AM

THANK YOU KWIATEK FOR YOUR HELP!

Now regarding Ariel's question, I think part of the answer is in the translation itself.

My theory is that wherever the Ottoman army went, they went there fully armed... and accompanied by skilled swordsmiths and gunsmiths necessary to repair the weapons damaged in combat. (This is based on the logic that they did not carry immense stocks of replacement weapons to simply replace the damaged ones with new stock, neither had they access to 2 day DHL/UPS/FedEx deliveries to be able to send their damaged weapons back to Turkey for repair and get them back in time for the next battle.)

And as soon as they conquered new territories, they established occupation garrisons that were manned with soldiers and... the smiths that accompanied them.

And this I believe explains how the Balkans have become a place of weapons production. This is supported by the fact that the Balkans were not known for their weapons production in the Middle Ages, but became known for that only AFTER the Ottoman occupation.

And I think this might be the case with other Ottoman occupied territories as well... like Syria in this case.

And that's how we end up with Turkish Ottoman weapons that were produced not in Turkey, but abroad.

Yet, I consider these weapons Turkish... unless they can be clearly diferentiated, either documented or stylistically from their Turkish counterparts. It will be impossible to differentiate a Yataghan made in Izmir by a Turkish smith from another Yataghan made in the Balkans, by the same smith that accompanied Ottoman army.

kwiatek · 15th March 2020, 12:03 AM

I think it can only be [1]295 even if it doesn’t look like a 2

The upper cartouche reads

عمل دمشق الشام صاحبه عثمان بيك

"Work of Damascus, Syria. It’s owner is Osman Bey.”

The lower one with the year is an Arabic saying, I’ll see if I can work it out

15th March 2020, 10:56 AM	#7
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,911	THANK YOU KWIATEK FOR YOUR HELP! Now regarding Ariel's question, I think part of the answer is in the translation itself. My theory is that wherever the Ottoman army went, they went there fully armed... and accompanied by skilled swordsmiths and gunsmiths necessary to repair the weapons damaged in combat. (This is based on the logic that they did not carry immense stocks of replacement weapons to simply replace the damaged ones with new stock, neither had they access to 2 day DHL/UPS/FedEx deliveries to be able to send their damaged weapons back to Turkey for repair and get them back in time for the next battle.) And as soon as they conquered new territories, they established occupation garrisons that were manned with soldiers and... the smiths that accompanied them. And this I believe explains how the Balkans have become a place of weapons production. This is supported by the fact that the Balkans were not known for their weapons production in the Middle Ages, but became known for that only AFTER the Ottoman occupation. And I think this might be the case with other Ottoman occupied territories as well... like Syria in this case. And that's how we end up with Turkish Ottoman weapons that were produced not in Turkey, but abroad. Yet, I consider these weapons Turkish... unless they can be clearly diferentiated, either documented or stylistically from their Turkish counterparts. It will be impossible to differentiate a Yataghan made in Izmir by a Turkish smith from another Yataghan made in the Balkans, by the same smith that accompanied Ottoman army. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 15th March 2020 at 11:46 AM.

14th March 2020, 04:27 PM	#1
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	Very nice! It looks older then 1878 to me, I dont really see 295, more like 695 or 195

15th March 2020, 12:03 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	This configuration of a handle is often attributed to Albania. Any evidence pro or con?

15th March 2020, 12:03 AM	#8
kwiatek Member Join Date: May 2019 Posts: 156	I think it can only be [1]295 even if it doesn’t look like a 2 The upper cartouche reads عمل دمشق الشام صاحبه عثمان بيك "Work of Damascus, Syria. It’s owner is Osman Bey.” The lower one with the year is an Arabic saying, I’ll see if I can work it out