Black stain spreading on keris during vinegar cleaning

kai · 11th March 2020, 09:18 PM

Hello Apolaki,

I'm still at a loss about the stench you report; rotten-egg smell is certainly not unheard of though. There is a reason why most of us do these things outside, in a shed or in some other well-ventilated area...

I'm also pretty pretty sure anyone possibly living with you wouldn't appreciate any fermenting pineapple juice with fungus floating on top.

Having said that, keris Jawa blades can be especially porous and whatever happens to hide inside those crevices may differ quite a bit and possibly contribute to unexpected "features" as well.

The general rule for traditional/historic iron/steel: the greater the amount of carbon, the more susceptible they are to corrosion (i.e. rusting away). If any given steel alloy has been hardened, it corrodes even quicker than unhardened. For more details you can consult metallurgical text books but as Alan notes, this is not really needed for basic cleaning efforts.

Any smooth-looking edges with enough patina on them so that you can't see the bare steel anymore is likely to have patches consisting of rust rather than steel. When you start cleaning, the rust will fall off and these patches will look like in the pics you show (or worse). For keris Jawa this appearance is culturally accepted nowadays.

Regarding the aesthetics of the final result, I suggest that you're still in the middle of the cleaning phase: It would be good to proceed to remove all rust as Jean already suggested. One usually tries to limit exposure of the blade to any acid and manually scrubbing the blade and individually picking the remaining spots of rust as described by Alan really helps the acid to finish its job quicker.

Once the rust is completely removed (pics with flash can help to detect any remaining rust), you could try to rub a cut lime fruit over the dark areas, if you prefer lesser contrast. I usually do this as a preparation before progressing to warangan.

For pretty much any keris Jawa or keris Bali/Lombok warangan is needed as a final step to bring out the traditional look of the pamor. If you can't do that, it might be worth a try with other etching approaches including the cold blue suggested by Alan. While the exposed steel core will always stay visible (perfectly ok), the main part of the blade should have some pamor to show which would lessen the current B&W contrast.

Quote:

The exact same thing happened to a moro kris I attempted to clean with diluted vinegar, and it turned out to ruin that moro kris in the end.

BTW, that Moro kris is far from ruined! (Unless you haven't shown us his most recent reincarnation...)

As far as I could see, the overall surface wasn't even porous and just needs "a little" touching up with some polishing effort. Needs a bit of tedious work but feasible even for any beginner.

The more experience one gains with restoration, the better one is able to predict the final outcome and the hopefully best strategy to achieve it with the least effort. Most errors or results of less suitable approaches do not tend to have severe consequences and can be remedied with additional efforts. However, it helps to obtain frequent feedback during each project to progress along the learning curve - I'd posit posting pics of the current status of any ongoing projects more frequently!

The more a blade approaches any relict/excavated condition, the more careful one should consider just leaving it alone though. (There is a reason why we tend to speak of "ghost" blades in forum parlor, especially with keris Jawa.)

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 11th March 2020, 11:52 PM

Kai, I have tried cold blue on a normal contrasting pamor blade but it does not produce acceptable results.

However, on pamor sanak, which is all ferric material, it can produce more or less OK results, and for touch-ups of worn areas on a blade that has contrasting pamor it works really well. I'm talking about very small areas when I mention "touch-ups", areas less than, say, 3mm X 3mm.

What you say about sensitising the blade prior to warangan by rubbing a cut lime over it is better achieved by brushing with strained juice from Tahitian lime, freshly squeezed.

jagabuwana · 12th March 2020, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Kai, I have tried cold blue on a normal contrasting pamor blade but it does not produce acceptable results.

However, on pamor sanak, which is all ferric material, it can produce more or less OK results, and for touch-ups of worn areas on a blade that has contrasting pamor it works really well. I'm talking about very small areas when I mention "touch-ups", areas less than, say, 3mm X 3mm.

Alan or anyone else - might you be able to show have a good example of a darkened pamor sanak blade, or a pamor sanak blade which has had cold blue applied to it such that it produces an "ok result"?

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2020, 02:08 AM

I cannot. Sorry.

apolaki · 12th March 2020, 02:10 AM

How do you indicate that this is pamor sanak? I see the word mentioned several times. From when I cleaned the blade, I could not find any distinct contrasting patterns in the blade.

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2020, 03:10 AM

"sanak" means "related", a relative, or a relation.

"Pamor Sanak" is "related pamor"

Related to what?

The rest of the blade, in other words the pamor is ferric material, usually of various types, blended together. It is not usual for pamor made exclusively of ferric material to provide contrast, but if white iron (high phosphorus iron) is used you will get a low key contrast.

jagabuwana · 12th March 2020, 05:43 AM

If a blade does not have an obvious pamor (e.g. using ferric and non-ferric materials such that obvious contrasts in the damascene pattern can be seen), how often is it the case that it can be called "pamor sanak"?

Would this be almost the same as asking this question:

Were keris or other tosan aji from what is now Indonesia ever made using a single material, such that there can be no pamor to speak of?

A. G. Maisey · 12th March 2020, 08:27 AM

We usually classify something as pamor sanak if we can see the weld lines but there is no contrast, in other words, the outside layers have been made by welding together an assortment of various irons.

Yes, there are blades from various places that give the appearance of having been made from only the one type of material.

During the 1980's in Solo the elite of ahli keris that I came in contact with seemed to hold the opinion that in Sultan Agung's time, and also before and after, keris that were made specifically as weapons were made without contrasting pamor, whilst keris that were made with pamor and/or naga and other carved motifs were made for talismanic or social reasons.

11th March 2020, 11:52 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Kai, I have tried cold blue on a normal contrasting pamor blade but it does not produce acceptable results. However, on pamor sanak, which is all ferric material, it can produce more or less OK results, and for touch-ups of worn areas on a blade that has contrasting pamor it works really well. I'm talking about very small areas when I mention "touch-ups", areas less than, say, 3mm X 3mm. What you say about sensitising the blade prior to warangan by rubbing a cut lime over it is better achieved by brushing with strained juice from Tahitian lime, freshly squeezed.

12th March 2020, 02:08 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I cannot. Sorry.

12th March 2020, 02:10 AM	#5
apolaki Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 160	How do you indicate that this is pamor sanak? I see the word mentioned several times. From when I cleaned the blade, I could not find any distinct contrasting patterns in the blade.

12th March 2020, 03:10 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	"sanak" means "related", a relative, or a relation. "Pamor Sanak" is "related pamor" Related to what? The rest of the blade, in other words the pamor is ferric material, usually of various types, blended together. It is not usual for pamor made exclusively of ferric material to provide contrast, but if white iron (high phosphorus iron) is used you will get a low key contrast.

12th March 2020, 05:43 AM	#7
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 290	If a blade does not have an obvious pamor (e.g. using ferric and non-ferric materials such that obvious contrasts in the damascene pattern can be seen), how often is it the case that it can be called "pamor sanak"? Would this be almost the same as asking this question: Were keris or other tosan aji from what is now Indonesia ever made using a single material, such that there can be no pamor to speak of?

12th March 2020, 08:27 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	We usually classify something as pamor sanak if we can see the weld lines but there is no contrast, in other words, the outside layers have been made by welding together an assortment of various irons. Yes, there are blades from various places that give the appearance of having been made from only the one type of material. During the 1980's in Solo the elite of ahli keris that I came in contact with seemed to hold the opinion that in Sultan Agung's time, and also before and after, keris that were made specifically as weapons were made without contrasting pamor, whilst keris that were made with pamor and/or naga and other carved motifs were made for talismanic or social reasons.