Keris with elephant-headed blade.

Jean · 10th March 2020, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I would be interested to learn more on this identification as well. My understanding from searching for images of Bhima as depicted in Jawa and Bali is that the hairstyle is that is most often used is how we see Bhima in wayang theatre. I have also included a Bali hilt (albeit a contemporary carving) that is most probably intended to be Bhima with this same hairstyle.

You are correct David, see the attached balinese Bhima figure made from iron wood but I don't know if this hair style is exclusive or not. Your dvarapala picture does not depict Bima but a punakawan IMO.

Marcokeris · 10th March 2020, 11:33 AM

Two pics about the hilt
one is from Gaspard de Marval (Le Monde du Kris)
the other from Holstein book (Contribution etudes armes orientales)

A. G. Maisey · 10th March 2020, 01:25 PM

Jean, yes, I understood that you took the safe path and let Martin have the attribution, thus I was not questioning you, but rather asking the world at large if anybody knew of any authoritative source for Martin's attribution.

Jean, you have shown us a rather slight, pleasant looking figure carved from wood that you tell us is a representation of Bhima. This figure has a snake around its neck.

Which Hindu deity is very often depicted with a snake around his neck?

Does Bhima wear a snake around his neck?

David has shown us a couple of figures that he identifies as Dvarapalas, I'm assuming that he has taken this designation from the same source as he took the images, because before we can decide if a figure is truly a guardian (ie, dvarapala) we need to place it in context. But if they are not Dvarapalas why should we necessarily name them as Punakawans? These figures are totally removed from context, so we cannot really designate them as anything.

We really do need somebody who is recognised as expert in this field to tell us the things we do not know. Guesses and opinions from laymen are not a lot of use. What I mean by "expert" is a recognised authority in this specific field of art history, somebody like Bernet Kempers, or Fontein, or Kinney, or Klokke, or Kieven, or van Bemmel --- or any other recognised authority in the field of classical Javanese art. Having a high level of knowledge in one field does not necessarily mean that a person has a high level of knowledge in a related field.

Marco has given us a couple of additional images, one of which is identified as the old grab-bag of Raksasa, which is probably fair enough. I've got several hilts that have hair buns, and if they have fangs, I'd be more or less content to call them Raksasas.

This identification of keris hilt figures has been an ongoing problem for a very long time. I have found from experience that it is close to a total waste of time to talk to present day carvers about this. The answers might be buried somewhere in some obscure paper, but I have a great many papers on file, and I have not found anything helpful yet. Standard texts do not seem be too interested in this ID question. Respected people in Balinese & Javanese society seem to contradict one another and hold fast to their own opinions.

Helena van Bemmel had a book published around 25 years ago that is a comparative study of SE Asian Dvarapalas with specifically Dvarapalas in Indonesia that are still in place, but even that does not help a whole lot with specific identification. The whole thing is this:- as people from a Western cultural base we expect that if we see a figure carved as something that resembles a God, or a Demon, or whatever, then we should be able to give it a name. In fact those Gods, Demons & whatever are formless, the statue only exists to personify the invisible force. Dvarapalas have a pretty generic form that brings into the mind of the viewer the idea of protection, but that protective force is present without the Dvarapala, and the idea of protection that the figure conjures up in the mind of a viewer has the effect of concentrating the protective force.

I believe most people who follow the keris discussions in this forum are well aware of the ideas of the World we can see, and the World that we cannot see. Gods, Demons and Dvarapalas are from the world that we cannot see, they are pockets of force, all the statues do is personify them for people who do not yet have the ability to conjure them without a point of focus.

I feel that we need to be exceptionally careful about trying to place names on things that we do not understand. This is the reason that I would very much like to find somebody who knows one hell of a lot more than I do about how to affix identities to the figures we see used as keris hilts, and also Javanese/Balinese statues in general.

Marcokeris · 10th March 2020, 02:21 PM

About the world we cannot see as rightly Mr. Masey said .....Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli will publish a new book in English "The invisible world of the kris" a compendium on the esoteric, legendary, mythological and magical aspects of kris

http://www.enciclopediadelledonne.it...-ghiringhelli/

A. G. Maisey · 10th March 2020, 02:33 PM

I look forward to this publication Marco. Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli is certainly an authority on mainstream Hindu beliefs and culture.

Can you advise how this book can be ordered?

Marcokeris · 10th March 2020, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I look forward to this publication Marco. Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli is certainly an authority on mainstream Hindu beliefs and culture.

Can you advise how this book can be ordered?

Of course! when Mrs. Vanna will publish the book (the text is ready but the book not yet published) I will immediately give informations here in the forum

David · 10th March 2020, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I look forward to this publication Marco. Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli is certainly an authority on mainstream Hindu beliefs and culture.

Can you advise how this book can be ordered?

I don't doubt that Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli is an authority on mainstream Hindu beliefs and culture, but i must say that while showing many interesting images of keris hilts, i have found both of her hilt books somewhat devoid of any really useful information. Though i would still be interested in this new book.
On that subject however, i am afraid that i must don my moderator hat here and suggest that any information on how this new book can be ordered should be addressed in a Swap Forum post.

Marcokeris · 10th March 2020, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I don't doubt that Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli is an authority on mainstream Hindu beliefs and culture, but i must say that while showing many interesting images of keris hilts, i have found both of her hilt books somewhat devoid of any really useful information. Though i would still be interested in this new book.
On that subject however, i am afraid that i must don my moderator hat here and suggest that any information on how this new book can be ordered should be addressed in a Swap Forum post.

I'lldoit

Marcokeris · 7th November 2020, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I look forward to this publication Marco. Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli is certainly an authority on mainstream Hindu beliefs and culture.

Can you advise how this book can be ordered?

I have receive this day the news about the new Vanna Ghiringhelli book

Jean · 11th November 2020, 11:42 AM

The book is not yet available on Amazon but it will be on some Italian bookshops from 14th November at the price of 38 Euros. Great!

We badly need some kris events for boosting our spirits during this confinement period!
Regards

kai · 11th November 2020, 12:24 PM

Thanks, Mario!

Sounds like the event will be in Italian only, doesn't it?

Regards,
Kai

Jean · 10th March 2020, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, you have shown us a rather slight, pleasant looking figure carved from wood that you tell us is a representation of Bhima. This figure has a snake around its neck.

Which Hindu deity is very often depicted with a snake around his neck?

Does Bhima wear a snake around his neck?

Hello Alan,
You are right that my figure wears a snake around its neck (Bhima being the enemy of the snakes) but I rather identified the figure as Bhima from its dark skin and gada (mace). Have you got a different opinion? I have a similar figure depicting Arjuna (or Rama) with its bow.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 10th March 2020, 09:50 PM

Thank you Marco.

David, in respect of Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli's previous publications, I reserve comment.

In respect of her upcoming publication I will say only this:- this lady writes well, and is a meticulous researcher, I have found all of her writings to be an excellent mirror of the overall beliefs associated with the keris. Her perspective is in my opinion one that should be given close attention by anybody who wishes to undertake a comparative study of the keris as it is understood by all of those people who have an interest in it.

Jean, I have no opinion at all on who this figure might be intended to represent Jean. I feel that probably one would need to know the carver in order to know his intentions. What I do know is that if this totogan is intended to represent Bhima, it is a very atypical representation.

You have said that the figure bears a mace, I can only see that he has something in his left hand, would it be possible to show us the other side of this figure, so we can see the mace?

David · 10th March 2020, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, in respect of Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli's previous publications, I reserve comment.
In respect of her upcoming publication I will say only this:- this lady writes well, and is a meticulous researcher, I have found all of her writings to be an excellent mirror of the overall beliefs associated with the keris. Her perspective is in my opinion one that should be given close attention by anybody who wishes to undertake a comparative study of the keris as it is understood by all of those people who have an interest in it.

Well Alan, as i stated earlier, i do have both of her books on hilts and i would be most interested in seeing, if not owning (which is probably the only way i will get to see it) this upcoming book as well. I do not disagree with you commentary on her writing or perspective .

Jean · 11th March 2020, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Well Alan, as i stated earlier, i do have both of her books on hilts and i would be most interested in seeing, if not owning (which is probably the only way i will get to see it) this upcoming book as well. I do not disagree with you commentary on her writing or perspective .

Regarding the last book from Vanna: "Kris hilts, masterpieces of South-East Asian art", she asked me (and probably some Italian collectors also) to help her identifying some very rare pieces from the collection but I was unable to give her any justified opinion. So she wisely chose to be very careful about the identification of these hilts.
Regards

Jean · 11th March 2020, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You have said that the figure bears a mace, I can only see that he has something in his left hand, would it be possible to show us the other side of this figure, so we can see the mace?

Hello Alan,
See the attached pic. I selected the other pic to better show the hairdesss in wayang style.
Regards

Mickey the Finn · 6th December 2020, 01:00 AM

Discussion about the identity of the gada/mace toting personage caught my attention. The material to follow is mostly from Wikipedia and Vedicfeed, and does not reflect my opinion about the identity of the personage; I don't know enough about the subject to have formed an opinion. It's food for thought, or more fodder for speculation.
Balarama is often depicted with a serpent canopy. He is mentioned at vedicfeed as being the incarnation of Shesha Naag, the Nagaraja, associated with Vishnu. Vedicfeed also says that Balarama is an avatar of Vishnu, Vishnu incarnated as Krishna, and that Shesha Naag is a manifestation of Vishnu. When Balarama "died"/ "disappeared"/ "reached the state of Yoga Samadhi", a spirit in the shape of a white snake came out of his mouth. Balarama isn't depicted with a serpent around his neck, but there's a definite association.
Religion.wikia.org says "Balarama is almost always [italics mine] depicted as being fair skinned...". There is one 19th C. Nathdwara painting of Balarama and Revati, and Balarama is depicted with blue skin and yellow garments, including a yellow turban. However, he wields a plow in this painting, not a gada/mace. He may have roughly seven bulbous knots in his black hair, or they may be a serpent canopy; it's hard to tell from the picture.
And although Shiva is known for the serpent around his neck, he is not known to wield a mace.
Hanuman does wield a mace, but...
I'll conclude now.
Mickey

David · 10th March 2020, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

You are correct David, see the attached balinese Bhima figure made from iron wood but I don't know if this hair style is exclusive or not. Your dvarapala picture does not depict Bima but a punakawan IMO.

Beautiful wooden carving of Bhima Jean. I love it.
Yes, i am aware that the photos i posted are nor Bhima. My question was rhetorical. I posted these dvarapala because they had the hairstyle people were claiming indicated Bhima, but i was sure they were not, in fact, Bhima. I can't really speak to the Punakawan question at this point. What i can say to Alan's question is that yes, these statues were identified as dvarapala from the source i grabbed them from and they are indeed acting as guardians outside of temples in Bail. I would have to investigate further to answer which temples those were as i did not pay close attention when i found them, but they dod seem to be in place as guardians for those temple and so i assumed that dvarapala would indeed be the proper designation for them.

10th March 2020, 11:33 AM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Two pics about the hilt one is from Gaspard de Marval (Le Monde du Kris) the other from Holstein book (Contribution etudes armes orientales) Attached Images

6th December 2020, 01:00 AM	#17
Mickey the Finn Member Join Date: Dec 2017 Posts: 90	To: Jean, et al. Re: Balarama. Discussion about the identity of the gada/mace toting personage caught my attention. The material to follow is mostly from Wikipedia and Vedicfeed, and does not reflect my opinion about the identity of the personage; I don't know enough about the subject to have formed an opinion. It's food for thought, or more fodder for speculation. Balarama is often depicted with a serpent canopy. He is mentioned at vedicfeed as being the incarnation of Shesha Naag, the Nagaraja, associated with Vishnu. Vedicfeed also says that Balarama is an avatar of Vishnu, Vishnu incarnated as Krishna, and that Shesha Naag is a manifestation of Vishnu. When Balarama "died"/ "disappeared"/ "reached the state of Yoga Samadhi", a spirit in the shape of a white snake came out of his mouth. Balarama isn't depicted with a serpent around his neck, but there's a definite association. Religion.wikia.org says "Balarama is almost always [italics mine] depicted as being fair skinned...". There is one 19th C. Nathdwara painting of Balarama and Revati, and Balarama is depicted with blue skin and yellow garments, including a yellow turban. However, he wields a plow in this painting, not a gada/mace. He may have roughly seven bulbous knots in his black hair, or they may be a serpent canopy; it's hard to tell from the picture. And although Shiva is known for the serpent around his neck, he is not known to wield a mace. Hanuman does wield a mace, but... I'll conclude now. Mickey

10th March 2020, 01:25 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Jean, yes, I understood that you took the safe path and let Martin have the attribution, thus I was not questioning you, but rather asking the world at large if anybody knew of any authoritative source for Martin's attribution. Jean, you have shown us a rather slight, pleasant looking figure carved from wood that you tell us is a representation of Bhima. This figure has a snake around its neck. Which Hindu deity is very often depicted with a snake around his neck? Does Bhima wear a snake around his neck? David has shown us a couple of figures that he identifies as Dvarapalas, I'm assuming that he has taken this designation from the same source as he took the images, because before we can decide if a figure is truly a guardian (ie, dvarapala) we need to place it in context. But if they are not Dvarapalas why should we necessarily name them as Punakawans? These figures are totally removed from context, so we cannot really designate them as anything. We really do need somebody who is recognised as expert in this field to tell us the things we do not know. Guesses and opinions from laymen are not a lot of use. What I mean by "expert" is a recognised authority in this specific field of art history, somebody like Bernet Kempers, or Fontein, or Kinney, or Klokke, or Kieven, or van Bemmel --- or any other recognised authority in the field of classical Javanese art. Having a high level of knowledge in one field does not necessarily mean that a person has a high level of knowledge in a related field. Marco has given us a couple of additional images, one of which is identified as the old grab-bag of Raksasa, which is probably fair enough. I've got several hilts that have hair buns, and if they have fangs, I'd be more or less content to call them Raksasas. This identification of keris hilt figures has been an ongoing problem for a very long time. I have found from experience that it is close to a total waste of time to talk to present day carvers about this. The answers might be buried somewhere in some obscure paper, but I have a great many papers on file, and I have not found anything helpful yet. Standard texts do not seem be too interested in this ID question. Respected people in Balinese & Javanese society seem to contradict one another and hold fast to their own opinions. Helena van Bemmel had a book published around 25 years ago that is a comparative study of SE Asian Dvarapalas with specifically Dvarapalas in Indonesia that are still in place, but even that does not help a whole lot with specific identification. The whole thing is this:- as people from a Western cultural base we expect that if we see a figure carved as something that resembles a God, or a Demon, or whatever, then we should be able to give it a name. In fact those Gods, Demons & whatever are formless, the statue only exists to personify the invisible force. Dvarapalas have a pretty generic form that brings into the mind of the viewer the idea of protection, but that protective force is present without the Dvarapala, and the idea of protection that the figure conjures up in the mind of a viewer has the effect of concentrating the protective force. I believe most people who follow the keris discussions in this forum are well aware of the ideas of the World we can see, and the World that we cannot see. Gods, Demons and Dvarapalas are from the world that we cannot see, they are pockets of force, all the statues do is personify them for people who do not yet have the ability to conjure them without a point of focus. I feel that we need to be exceptionally careful about trying to place names on things that we do not understand. This is the reason that I would very much like to find somebody who knows one hell of a lot more than I do about how to affix identities to the figures we see used as keris hilts, and also Javanese/Balinese statues in general.

10th March 2020, 02:21 PM	#4
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	About the world we cannot see as rightly Mr. Masey said .....Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli will publish a new book in English "The invisible world of the kris" a compendium on the esoteric, legendary, mythological and magical aspects of kris http://www.enciclopediadelledonne.it...-ghiringhelli/

10th March 2020, 02:33 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	I look forward to this publication Marco. Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli is certainly an authority on mainstream Hindu beliefs and culture. Can you advise how this book can be ordered?

11th November 2020, 11:42 AM	#10
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	The book is not yet available on Amazon but it will be on some Italian bookshops from 14th November at the price of 38 Euros. Great! We badly need some kris events for boosting our spirits during this confinement period! Regards

11th November 2020, 12:24 PM	#11
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Thanks, Mario! Sounds like the event will be in Italian only, doesn't it? Regards, Kai

10th March 2020, 09:50 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Thank you Marco. David, in respect of Mrs. Vanna Ghiringhelli's previous publications, I reserve comment. In respect of her upcoming publication I will say only this:- this lady writes well, and is a meticulous researcher, I have found all of her writings to be an excellent mirror of the overall beliefs associated with the keris. Her perspective is in my opinion one that should be given close attention by anybody who wishes to undertake a comparative study of the keris as it is understood by all of those people who have an interest in it. Jean, I have no opinion at all on who this figure might be intended to represent Jean. I feel that probably one would need to know the carver in order to know his intentions. What I do know is that if this totogan is intended to represent Bhima, it is a very atypical representation. You have said that the figure bears a mace, I can only see that he has something in his left hand, would it be possible to show us the other side of this figure, so we can see the mace?