DOEHOENG KASOENDAN (A Soenda Perspective)

Jean · 6th March 2020, 09:51 AM

Hello Amuk,
Thank you for the pic of this interesting piece again! Some comments or questions please:
. The blade looks much older that the hilt and scabbard. This type of hilt is apparently made in Lombok, or perhaps Bali or Sumbawa?
. This style of pendok overlapping on the atasan is fequently seen these days but is it an original design?
. Koekoedoeng = Kembang kacang, djalwan = jalen, pentil = pejetan, and ladjer = greneng

Regards

Jean · 7th March 2020, 03:30 PM

Hello Amuk,
A similar hilt to yours fitted on a new kris from Sumbawa (courtesy of PdV).
Regards

Amuk Murugul · 20th October 2021, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

. ..... This type of hilt is .....
. This style of pendok overlapping on the atasan is fequently seen these days .....

Hullo Jean,

I've changed the hilt for a 'more appropriate' one. Hope it's pleasing.
I've also attached pics of similar oversheaths from 18thC-early19thC. One was a present from Hamengkoeboewono.

Best,

Jean · 20th October 2021, 11:51 AM

Hello Amuk,
Beautiful pieces, thank you!
The silver hilt on the first pic is in coteng style from Patani (Thailand) so not very suitable with this Cirebon kris IMO?
Regards

Amuk Murugul · 20th October 2021, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Amuk,
Beautiful pieces, thank you!
The silver hilt on the first pic is in coteng style from Patani (Thailand) so not very suitable with this Cirebon kris IMO?
Regards

Hullo Jean,

You may be right, but I believe itto be northern coast of western Java.

Best,

David · 20th October 2021, 04:06 PM

Hi Amuk. Why do you believe the hilt you have placed on this keris originated on the North Coast of Western Jawa? It clearly appears to be a coteng hilt.
Do you have some provenance for this assertion. Though i believe many people have traced the evolutionary origin of coteng and tajong hilts back to Jawa the primogenitor hilts that are usually pointed to are not the fully developed coteng or tajong forms. But if you could show evidence that such hilts did exist in Jawa back then you would have an important discovery.

Jean · 20th October 2021, 08:37 PM

This piece may be a javanese copy of a tajong hilt, see the hatched decoration especially.

David · 20th October 2021, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

This piece may be a javanese copy of a tajong hilt, see the hatched decoration especially.

Possibly. I honestly cannot judge from this one photograph. But even if made in Java to would not have been made for a Javanese keris and i am sure you agree that it is stylistically incorrect for this ensemble. While some culturally mixed keris ensembles may well have some legitimacy in ethnographic usage i would have a hard time seeing this mix of Javanese and Peninsula styles finding social acceptability in either culture.

shadejoy · 1st April 2022, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo Jean,

I've changed the hilt for a 'more appropriate' one. Hope it's pleasing.
I've also attached pics of similar oversheaths from 18thC-early19thC. One was a present from Hamengkoeboewono.

Best,

Love the warangka ladrang you have (one from Hamengkoeboewono wow)! I had never seen pendok such as that before, it looks dignified.

Thank you very much for sharing your pusakas with us!

jagabuwana · 4th April 2022, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadejoy

I had never seen pendok such as that before, it looks dignified.

Yeah I really them too. Then again I'm pretty partial to West Java/Sunda stuff.

Interestingly, this style of pendok can be seen in one of the earliest and detailed depictions of the keris we have in art.

Attached is Frans Francken the Younger's "The Cabinet of a Collector", 1617. A Dutch painter.

I know of at least one Sundanese wood carver/mranggi who is attempting to make this style of pendok for collectors of Sunda/West Javanese keris. It doesn't seem to be that common anymore.

A. G. Maisey · 4th April 2022, 10:25 AM

Candi Sukuh, Jawa Tengah, Circa 1440CE

jagabuwana · 5th April 2022, 05:49 AM

Alan - I'd like to confirm that what I'm seeing is correct because it's not so clear to my eyes.

Does the relief show a sheath that looks like a sandang walikat wrongko, and a pistol grip-shaped handle?

A. G. Maisey · 5th April 2022, 09:12 AM

Absolutely correct JB.

There is another relief carving in the same location and with same time & place of origin that shows this style of wrongko too, but the carving is not as clear as this one.

Across in East Jawa at Candi Panataran (Penataran), near Blitar, state temple of Majapahit, we can find a representation of a wrongko that is 100% Bugis.

When we get to digging a bit and looking at the old, original evidence we do sometimes find a few unusual things.

7th March 2020, 03:30 PM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Amuk, A similar hilt to yours fitted on a new kris from Sumbawa (courtesy of PdV). Regards Attached Images

4th April 2022, 10:25 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Candi Sukuh, Jawa Tengah, Circa 1440CE Attached Images

6th March 2020, 09:51 AM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Amuk, Thank you for the pic of this interesting piece again! Some comments or questions please: . The blade looks much older that the hilt and scabbard. This type of hilt is apparently made in Lombok, or perhaps Bali or Sumbawa? . This style of pendok overlapping on the atasan is fequently seen these days but is it an original design? . Koekoedoeng = Kembang kacang, djalwan = jalen, pentil = pejetan, and ladjer = greneng Regards

20th October 2021, 11:51 AM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Amuk, Beautiful pieces, thank you! The silver hilt on the first pic is in coteng style from Patani (Thailand) so not very suitable with this Cirebon kris IMO? Regards

20th October 2021, 04:06 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Hi Amuk. Why do you believe the hilt you have placed on this keris originated on the North Coast of Western Jawa? It clearly appears to be a coteng hilt. Do you have some provenance for this assertion. Though i believe many people have traced the evolutionary origin of coteng and tajong hilts back to Jawa the primogenitor hilts that are usually pointed to are not the fully developed coteng or tajong forms. But if you could show evidence that such hilts did exist in Jawa back then you would have an important discovery.

20th October 2021, 08:37 PM	#7
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	This piece may be a javanese copy of a tajong hilt, see the hatched decoration especially.

5th April 2022, 05:49 AM	#12
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 292	Alan - I'd like to confirm that what I'm seeing is correct because it's not so clear to my eyes. Does the relief show a sheath that looks like a sandang walikat wrongko, and a pistol grip-shaped handle?

5th April 2022, 09:12 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Absolutely correct JB. There is another relief carving in the same location and with same time & place of origin that shows this style of wrongko too, but the carving is not as clear as this one. Across in East Jawa at Candi Panataran (Penataran), near Blitar, state temple of Majapahit, we can find a representation of a wrongko that is 100% Bugis. When we get to digging a bit and looking at the old, original evidence we do sometimes find a few unusual things.