Persian (?) shamshir.

ariel · 22nd February 2020, 07:18 PM

Interesting one.
Very nice wootz , unfortunately quite rusty in areas.

I am not concerned with authenticity and respectable age, but there are intriguing inconsistencies (?):

The blade has several narrow fullers interspersed with flat areas: this was often seen on Afghani blades.
The koft is pretty crude, and Persians were very careful
The upper part of the blade has silver koft, not typical for Persia, but very frequent on Arabian ( especially Syrian ) ones.
The upper langet is surrounded by wire (?), - another Arabian feature.
The pommel is downturned, yet another North Arabian, Bedawi, feature.

I tend to think that it might be an Afghani blade, decorated and mounted in the Syrian part of the Ottoman Empire. Why not vice versa? Because carving an entire fuller array would be a major undertaking, while applying koft is a no brainer.

I would be generous with WD-40 to remove any rust.

BTW, a question: would anyone use Rust Converter here? There are multiple pits with active rust and there is no chance one can remove it piece by piece. Or, treatment with tannic acid would destroy wootz appearance? After all, acid etching is in fact a controlled rusting.

TVV · 22nd February 2020, 07:57 PM

Could the hilt be from Hyderabad, based on the slightly curved down turned pommel?

There was a discussion on this topic in the forum in the past:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...rabad+shamshir

ariel · 22nd February 2020, 08:20 PM

I thought about it, and that would fit nicely with the Afghani origin, but there is no hole for the ring and the "bend" is not strong enough. Dang! Here goes the hypothesis!

Kubur · 22nd February 2020, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Could the hilt be from Hyderabad, based on the slightly curved down turned pommel?

There was a discussion on this topic in the forum in the past:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...rabad+shamshir

I was thinking about that but the rivets and the leather don't match.

For sure the blade is Persian and Marius will be right to say that this blade should return to her former glory.

The guard looks Persian to me and I understand Sylektis this is a small mystery... May be Balutchi???

Oliver Pinchot · 22nd February 2020, 09:19 PM

Sylektis, can you post closeups of the pommel and hilt bosses, as well as the tip of the blade, please? We can say the following: the grips, pommel and koftgari on the blade are likely Ottoman provincial work (Arab provinces.) However, closer examination of the motifs may prove otherwise.

Earlier on, some Ottoman sword grips were octagonal and often wood covered in leather (this characteristic also appears on Afghan shamshir hilts much later; typical stylistic conservatism.)

The guard is also an earlier Ottoman style but similar are found on some later sabers. At the minimum, it's clear this sword was mounted in a culturally, probably isolated, area.

The blade appears to have been forged with a broader central fuller originally; the small interrupted fullers along the spine and outlining the fuller could have been cut in later.

Ariel, old chum, I agree with you generally, pending more photos. However, when you use the term "afghani," I cringe. It's a coin, not an ethnic group. In English, the term is "Afghan." Same goes for "Uzbeki"-- this isn't English. People from Uzbekistan are called Uzbeks. Too, the correct name for the Iranian language in English is "Persian," not Farsi. It's like saying, He speaks Espanol, or he speaks francais.

Look forward to seeing closeups of the hilt and also the last few inches of the blade.

ariel · 22nd February 2020, 11:06 PM

Oliver,
I go by what is a " good stuff":-)
Uzbek or Afghan is an ethnicity. Uzbeki or Afghani is "... of Uzbek or Afghan origin",
I am sure you know how good the "Uzbeki" is:-))

See:

ariel · 22nd February 2020, 11:14 PM

Oliver,
BTW, do you know why the country is Persia, but they themselves call their language not Parsi, but Farsi?

Kubur · 23rd February 2020, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Oliver,
BTW, do you know why the country is Persia, but they themselves call their language not Parsi, but Farsi?

I think the name of the country is Iran since the Bronze age...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The upper part of the blade has silver koft, not typical for Persia, but very frequent on Arabian ( especially Syrian ) ones..

I agree with Ariel and Oliver, Syrian or around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The upper langet is surrounded by wire (?), - another Arabian feature.

It looks like a piece of textile added later

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

The guard is also an earlier Ottoman style but similar are found on some later sabers.
.

I agree and disagree, you have old Persian guards like that too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

We can say the following: the grips, pommel and koftgari on the blade are likely Ottoman provincial work (Arab provinces.) However, closer examination of the motifs may prove otherwise.
.

This is wise and clever. I can translate it as:
We don't know yet...

Sylektis · 23rd February 2020, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Sylektis, can you post closeups of the pommel and hilt bosses, as well as the tip of the blade, please? We can say the following: the grips, pommel and koftgari on the blade are likely Ottoman provincial work (Arab provinces.) However, closer examination of the motifs may prove otherwise.

Earlier on, some Ottoman sword grips were octagonal and often wood covered in leather (this characteristic also appears on Afghan shamshir hilts much later; typical stylistic conservatism.)

The guard is also an earlier Ottoman style but similar are found on some later sabers. At the minimum, it's clear this sword was mounted in a culturally, probably isolated, area.

The blade appears to have been forged with a broader central fuller originally; the small interrupted fullers along the spine and outlining the fuller could have been cut in later.

Ariel, old chum, I agree with you generally, pending more photos. However, when you use the term "afghani," I cringe. It's a coin, not an ethnic group. In English, the term is "Afghan." Same goes for "Uzbeki"-- this isn't English. People from Uzbekistan are called Uzbeks. Too, the correct name for the Iranian language in English is "Persian," not Farsi. It's like saying, He speaks Espanol, or he speaks francais.

Look forward to seeing closeups of the hilt and also the last few inches of the blade.

Thank you very much guys for the help you have given me, with your knowledge and experience.
I am uploading the photos that Oliver requested to complete your opinion.
And again I ask, what is your opinion on blade cleaning?

ariel · 23rd February 2020, 09:02 PM

Under normal circumstances, one would soak the blade in oil or DW-40 and then use steel wool.
However, areas of active rust go well beyond Koft areas, and steel wool would remove everything. Moreover, there seems to be rust underneath the koft. Softening of dissolving rust would dislodge it as well.
Soaking and steelwooling distally of Koft might be the main option. Gentle oiling and toothpicking the rust within the Koft area may be the max you can do.

Steelwooling will remove wootz pattern as well, and you will have to re-etch.

Hope that my suggestion is an unnecessarily pessimistic one and other people here have aces up their sleeves which they are willing to share.

motan · 25th February 2020, 09:32 AM

Hi,
I know practically nothing about swords and I respect all the expert opinions on this thread, but still, I want to suggest a different idea.
What if this sword is Syrian/Ottoman in its entirety?
I do not see anything to suggest that parts were made in different periods or places, rather than the discrepancy between the quality of the wootz and the quality of the sword as a whole.
Both the hilt and the blade, as well as the koftgari look Syrian and not Persian to me, mostly because of the lower quality of work. The reason it does not resemble other examples of Ottoman/Badawi swords made in Syria could be that it is simply older than most, which are typically late 19th c and re-hilted blades of different origins. The blade could be made from Indian wootz or from any other wootz blade which was re-worked extensively.
This is purely a hunch, but I thought it might be worth writing.

22nd February 2020, 08:20 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I thought about it, and that would fit nicely with the Afghani origin, but there is no hole for the ring and the "bend" is not strong enough. Dang! Here goes the hypothesis! Last edited by ariel; 22nd February 2020 at 08:31 PM.

22nd February 2020, 11:06 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Oliver, I go by what is a " good stuff":-) Uzbek or Afghan is an ethnicity. Uzbeki or Afghani is "... of Uzbek or Afghan origin", I am sure you know how good the "Uzbeki" is:-)) See: Attached Images

25th February 2020, 09:32 AM	#11
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	What if? Hi, I know practically nothing about swords and I respect all the expert opinions on this thread, but still, I want to suggest a different idea. What if this sword is Syrian/Ottoman in its entirety? I do not see anything to suggest that parts were made in different periods or places, rather than the discrepancy between the quality of the wootz and the quality of the sword as a whole. Both the hilt and the blade, as well as the koftgari look Syrian and not Persian to me, mostly because of the lower quality of work. The reason it does not resemble other examples of Ottoman/Badawi swords made in Syria could be that it is simply older than most, which are typically late 19th c and re-hilted blades of different origins. The blade could be made from Indian wootz or from any other wootz blade which was re-worked extensively. This is purely a hunch, but I thought it might be worth writing.

22nd February 2020, 07:18 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Interesting one. Very nice wootz , unfortunately quite rusty in areas. I am not concerned with authenticity and respectable age, but there are intriguing inconsistencies (?): The blade has several narrow fullers interspersed with flat areas: this was often seen on Afghani blades. The koft is pretty crude, and Persians were very careful The upper part of the blade has silver koft, not typical for Persia, but very frequent on Arabian ( especially Syrian ) ones. The upper langet is surrounded by wire (?), - another Arabian feature. The pommel is downturned, yet another North Arabian, Bedawi, feature. I tend to think that it might be an Afghani blade, decorated and mounted in the Syrian part of the Ottoman Empire. Why not vice versa? Because carving an entire fuller array would be a major undertaking, while applying koft is a no brainer. I would be generous with WD-40 to remove any rust. BTW, a question: would anyone use Rust Converter here? There are multiple pits with active rust and there is no chance one can remove it piece by piece. Or, treatment with tannic acid would destroy wootz appearance? After all, acid etching is in fact a controlled rusting.

22nd February 2020, 07:57 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,737	Could the hilt be from Hyderabad, based on the slightly curved down turned pommel? There was a discussion on this topic in the forum in the past: http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...rabad+shamshir

22nd February 2020, 09:19 PM	#5
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 471	Sylektis, can you post closeups of the pommel and hilt bosses, as well as the tip of the blade, please? We can say the following: the grips, pommel and koftgari on the blade are likely Ottoman provincial work (Arab provinces.) However, closer examination of the motifs may prove otherwise. Earlier on, some Ottoman sword grips were octagonal and often wood covered in leather (this characteristic also appears on Afghan shamshir hilts much later; typical stylistic conservatism.) The guard is also an earlier Ottoman style but similar are found on some later sabers. At the minimum, it's clear this sword was mounted in a culturally, probably isolated, area. The blade appears to have been forged with a broader central fuller originally; the small interrupted fullers along the spine and outlining the fuller could have been cut in later. Ariel, old chum, I agree with you generally, pending more photos. However, when you use the term "afghani," I cringe. It's a coin, not an ethnic group. In English, the term is "Afghan." Same goes for "Uzbeki"-- this isn't English. People from Uzbekistan are called Uzbeks. Too, the correct name for the Iranian language in English is "Persian," not Farsi. It's like saying, He speaks Espanol, or he speaks francais. Look forward to seeing closeups of the hilt and also the last few inches of the blade.

22nd February 2020, 11:14 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Oliver, BTW, do you know why the country is Persia, but they themselves call their language not Parsi, but Farsi?

23rd February 2020, 09:02 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Under normal circumstances, one would soak the blade in oil or DW-40 and then use steel wool. However, areas of active rust go well beyond Koft areas, and steel wool would remove everything. Moreover, there seems to be rust underneath the koft. Softening of dissolving rust would dislodge it as well. Soaking and steelwooling distally of Koft might be the main option. Gentle oiling and toothpicking the rust within the Koft area may be the max you can do. Steelwooling will remove wootz pattern as well, and you will have to re-etch. Hope that my suggestion is an unnecessarily pessimistic one and other people here have aces up their sleeves which they are willing to share.