Opinions on Javanese Keris

A. G. Maisey · 31st January 2020, 06:45 PM

R Sword --- you're welcome

"Keris Jawa"? I did not even consider that as a possibility for an answer, just shows how easy it is for prejudice to make one wrong. I looked in a whole heap of little primers from before WWII, and a few of the more recent small booklets and came up empty.

The talismanic qualities I obviously had no idea about, but I have been advised by a reliable Javanese source that the pi - lulut should be read in conjunction with the cakra, and in this sense it can perhaps better be understood as devotion to Wisnu, or indication of the owner being a devotee of Wisnu (Vishnu), and thus relying upon him for protection.

The root, "lulut", can be understood as absolute devotion, or tameness, as well as romantic love.

JustYS · 1st February 2020, 04:38 AM

I’m a little bit confused, which symbol is representing “pilulut”?

RSWORD’s keris showed 2 types of symbol : Circle and Oval.

Jean’s keris showed the same Oval symbol.

Keris Jawa showed Oval symbol but not the same as Oval symbol as RSWORD and Jean’s Oval symbol.

Keris Jawa’s Oval symbol is similar as RSWORD’s Circle symbol.

Cheers,

Paul B. · 1st February 2020, 06:55 AM

The ganja (is it really a ganja or a carved line ?) is extremely slanting. Really odd.

David · 1st February 2020, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul B.

The ganja (is it really a ganja or a carved line ?) is extremely slanting. Really odd.

Paul, are you talking about the originally posted blade. If so the gonjo appears to be separate and the line appears very straight and parallel so i am confused about what you might mean.

Paul B. · 1st February 2020, 09:47 PM

Yes indeed the first one and the line seems so 'perfect' and the kinatah work a cover-up. Of course I can be mistaken.

A. G. Maisey · 1st February 2020, 10:55 PM

Paul, I believe that this is a separate gonjo, but very probably not the original gonjo. I think I expressed the opinion earlier that I believe this keris is a robahan, something that has been changed to make it more saleable.

If this keris were to be gonjo iras we could expect to see the lines of pamor running into the gonjo, but they do not. The gonjo is different material from the body of the keris.

The overall form of the keris is peculiar, the gonjo is not any type of acceptable form, the kinatah work is recent, by "recent" I do not mean last week, I mean much more recent than the body of the keris. This kinatah work could well be 80 or 100 years old, equally, it could be 1990's. The one thing I am certain of is that it is not original work.

Jean · 2nd February 2020, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustYS

I’m a little bit confused, which symbol is representing “pilulut”?

RSWORD’s keris showed 2 types of symbol : Circle and Oval.

Jean’s keris showed the same Oval symbol.

Keris Jawa showed Oval symbol but not the same as Oval symbol as RSWORD and Jean’s Oval symbol.

Keris Jawa’s Oval symbol is similar as RSWORD’s Circle symbol.

Cheers,

Hello,
The raja pilulut motif/ symbol is the oval one, but on the "Keris Jawa" specimen it has an additional transverse line which is uncommon.
Regards

JustYS · 2nd February 2020, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello,
The raja pilulut motif/ symbol is the oval one, but on the "Keris Jawa" specimen it has an additional transverse line which is uncommon.
Regards

Thank you Jean, yes you are right.

I’ve found it also in page 58 of Keris Jawa:

Jean · 2nd February 2020, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustYS

Thank you Jean, yes you are right.

I’ve found it also in page 58 of Keris Jawa:

Yes, thank you!

Anthony G. · 2nd February 2020, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustYS

Thank you Jean, yes you are right.

I’ve found it also in page 58 of Keris Jawa:

Sometimes I saw keris with a scorpion craving on the bilah, any idea what does it means?

JustYS · 2nd February 2020, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

Sometimes I saw keris with a scorpion craving on the bilah, any idea what does it means?

Hi Anthony,

Based on my limited knowledge the scorpion carving on the Keris is normally combined with Cakra carving (like RSWORD circle symbol) that represents Kalacakra.

Kala (scorpion) = Evil
Cakra = Weapon of Kreshna to destroy Evil

So Keris with Kalacakra carving means to protect the owner from Evil

A. G. Maisey · 3rd February 2020, 11:26 AM

You might be right YS, but then again ---

The scorpion is a bit of a problem child, how the scorpion is regarded is very subject to situation and to personal belief. If the scorpion is regarded from a Muslim point of view, it can have a somewhat different interpretation than if it is regarded from an Indian and Hindu point if view. In Jawa & Bali I have heard a number of interpretations of the meaning of a scorpion as a symbol, and frankly, I am reluctant to give an opinion on exactly what the scorpion means, because it seems to me that used as a talisman in Jawa & Bali, it can mean different things to different people.

Kresna is Krishna when he appears as a wayang character. Krishna is an avatar of Wisnu, and one of Wisnu's attributes is the cakra, so that's where Kresna's Cakra Baskara comes from, but then you have the problem of understanding if you're dealing with Kresna, or with Wisnu himself:- the cakra can certainly represent Wisnu, but can it also represent Kresna? Maybe.
Kresna's principal weapon was the conch shell --- he had others, but the conch is understood as representative of Kresna.

If we understand the cakra in the conventional sense of representing Wisnu, and then we attach one of the other interpretations for the scorpion, for instance "dominance", or "defiance", we can get a somewhat different reading. Scorpions are not always bad. Running on memory, but I seem to recall that in ancient Persia the scorpion was the symbol for Ishara, the Goddess of Love --- yeah, Persia is not Jawa, but in Jawa the scorpion can be a symbol for sex.

Reading talismanic symbols is a dangerous game:- you can read one meaning, based upon what you understand to be so, but you do not necessarily have the same understanding as the person who originally used that symbol.

But one thing is certain:- any talismanic symbol that we see attached to a keris has been designed to ensure that no evil spirits occupy the keris:- evil will always seek out an empty space, and a keris is more often empty than occupied.

31st January 2020, 06:45 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	R Sword --- you're welcome "Keris Jawa"? I did not even consider that as a possibility for an answer, just shows how easy it is for prejudice to make one wrong. I looked in a whole heap of little primers from before WWII, and a few of the more recent small booklets and came up empty. The talismanic qualities I obviously had no idea about, but I have been advised by a reliable Javanese source that the pi - lulut should be read in conjunction with the cakra, and in this sense it can perhaps better be understood as devotion to Wisnu, or indication of the owner being a devotee of Wisnu (Vishnu), and thus relying upon him for protection. The root, "lulut", can be understood as absolute devotion, or tameness, as well as romantic love.

1st February 2020, 04:38 AM	#2
JustYS Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 145	I’m a little bit confused, which symbol is representing “pilulut”? RSWORD’s keris showed 2 types of symbol : Circle and Oval. Jean’s keris showed the same Oval symbol. Keris Jawa showed Oval symbol but not the same as Oval symbol as RSWORD and Jean’s Oval symbol. Keris Jawa’s Oval symbol is similar as RSWORD’s Circle symbol. Cheers,

1st February 2020, 06:55 AM	#3
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	The ganja (is it really a ganja or a carved line ?) is extremely slanting. Really odd.

1st February 2020, 09:47 PM	#5
Paul B. Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 205	Yes indeed the first one and the line seems so 'perfect' and the kinatah work a cover-up. Of course I can be mistaken.

1st February 2020, 10:55 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Paul, I believe that this is a separate gonjo, but very probably not the original gonjo. I think I expressed the opinion earlier that I believe this keris is a robahan, something that has been changed to make it more saleable. If this keris were to be gonjo iras we could expect to see the lines of pamor running into the gonjo, but they do not. The gonjo is different material from the body of the keris. The overall form of the keris is peculiar, the gonjo is not any type of acceptable form, the kinatah work is recent, by "recent" I do not mean last week, I mean much more recent than the body of the keris. This kinatah work could well be 80 or 100 years old, equally, it could be 1990's. The one thing I am certain of is that it is not original work.

3rd February 2020, 11:26 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	You might be right YS, but then again --- The scorpion is a bit of a problem child, how the scorpion is regarded is very subject to situation and to personal belief. If the scorpion is regarded from a Muslim point of view, it can have a somewhat different interpretation than if it is regarded from an Indian and Hindu point if view. In Jawa & Bali I have heard a number of interpretations of the meaning of a scorpion as a symbol, and frankly, I am reluctant to give an opinion on exactly what the scorpion means, because it seems to me that used as a talisman in Jawa & Bali, it can mean different things to different people. Kresna is Krishna when he appears as a wayang character. Krishna is an avatar of Wisnu, and one of Wisnu's attributes is the cakra, so that's where Kresna's Cakra Baskara comes from, but then you have the problem of understanding if you're dealing with Kresna, or with Wisnu himself:- the cakra can certainly represent Wisnu, but can it also represent Kresna? Maybe. Kresna's principal weapon was the conch shell --- he had others, but the conch is understood as representative of Kresna. If we understand the cakra in the conventional sense of representing Wisnu, and then we attach one of the other interpretations for the scorpion, for instance "dominance", or "defiance", we can get a somewhat different reading. Scorpions are not always bad. Running on memory, but I seem to recall that in ancient Persia the scorpion was the symbol for Ishara, the Goddess of Love --- yeah, Persia is not Jawa, but in Jawa the scorpion can be a symbol for sex. Reading talismanic symbols is a dangerous game:- you can read one meaning, based upon what you understand to be so, but you do not necessarily have the same understanding as the person who originally used that symbol. But one thing is certain:- any talismanic symbol that we see attached to a keris has been designed to ensure that no evil spirits occupy the keris:- evil will always seek out an empty space, and a keris is more often empty than occupied.