Authenticity Of Keris

DAHenkel · 24th January 2005, 10:57 PM

Newly made.

This kind of wear is caused by Hydrochloric Acid. Its too even and the pitting is extremely deep, giving the blade the look of a flint blade. There are a whole lot of these artificially aged bethok/buddha blades being made today. Just browse ebay. You'll find 3 or 4 usually.

The funny thing is, the legitimately old ones usually look to be in better shape than the new ones.

But hey, if it was given to you, whats to worry about?

mykeris · 24th January 2005, 11:54 PM

Thanks DAHenkel. I have many more to learn. Do you have photo samples of the real ones or do you own any of this kind, an original one? Pictures taken from the original ones would help. TQ

Sakhti777 · 25th January 2005, 07:06 AM

There's now many new k. buda being produced in Indonesia to meet market demand, however none of those, in terms of its finishing, could match the prototype buda.

Your keris could be new or maybe ancient, no one knows, because till now I dont see anybody in this forum sending the right photos of original k.buda, mostly alarmed with assumptions without even seeing or owning one or may I say refrain to send one scared of being denied and condemned.

The overall physical and internal presentation of your keris,do invite me to have a second thought. In my humble opinion, I would rather categorise your keris as an 'early keris' not of original buda but bethok buda of later period which I think Allan Maisey is familiar off.

Severe pittings and corrosion of the blade not necessarily to mean it is the real one. I am sure the smith can produce uneven effects on a new blade any time. The hair found at the metuk acts as a 'spiritual strengthen tool' between the owner and the so called 'Chee' or energy of the keris.

rasdan · 25th January 2005, 07:54 AM

Im really confused of this kind of keris. I'm sure all of u guys had seen a lot of it. Due to the abundance of it, how can we know which is the genuine stuff?

Me myself have a tendancy to say it is a new keris if showed to me, but how can we be sure? Perhaps the one on front of our nose is the genuine thing. God knows. Is the keris buda in the late Mr. Bambang's encyclopedia genuine? I believe if i had the keris in the encyclopedia in my hands and showed it to others, they will plainly say that it is a fake. But, since it is in the book, perhaps majority of the keris lovers will say it is authentic.

(Of course, since its from a credible source) What im trying to say is, both the so called "fake" and the "genuine" article looks damn similar. And also, if we are evaluating keris in their energy side, some people told me that even the new keris buda have some energy. Perhaps the difference is only the strength. But this is not possible to be gauged by keris lovers that dont hav the "energy" knowledge. Only the esoteric guys can measure this. What about the rest of us that worship the keris for its exoteric?

In my opinion, if we have at least 2 or 3 samples of the so called genuine keris buda, we can have some bench mark on determining the authenticity. So, I'm begging u guys that have the genuine keris buda that u are at least 80% sure of the authenticity to show us the picture of the kerisses. At least we can evaluate the kerisses and disscuss some more, why it is genuine.

Sakhti777 · 25th January 2005, 08:09 AM

Yes Rasdan, that's a wise thing to do. Show to us genuine photos of keris Buda and not excerpts. Bambang`s keris buda would have the same fate if posted to this forum. Can we hear from Paul De Souza?

B.I · 25th January 2005, 01:12 PM

just a thought, would it not be just as useful, if not more so to post pictures of known fake types. if, as it was said, there are normally 3 or 4 on ebay all the time, a standard could be reached for people to reference to. no-one would go to a lot of trouble to make just one fake, without making a batch and dispersing it slowly onto a growing market.
at least those with less experience in keris (myself included) would know to doubt first. after 100+ years, there is less chance of coming across more than one identical genuine piece.
there was a seller in england who imported many fakes over the last 20 years (not s.e asian). as he brought them in bulk and sold them across the board, those that saw them would always recognise the type. i have seen pieces from these batches appearing now (years later) on well known, reliable websites and trustworthy auction sites innocently labelled as genuine. they are not to know as they didnt see them come in.

nechesh · 25th January 2005, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

And also, if we are evaluating keris in their energy side, some people told me that even the new keris buda have some energy. Perhaps the difference is only the strength. But this is not possible to be gauged by keris lovers that dont hav the "energy" knowledge. Only the esoteric guys can measure this. What about the rest of us that worship the keris for its exoteric?

Hi Rasdan. I guess i'm on of those "esorteric guys". OK all you technophiles, shield your eyes, i'll try to make this quick.

Objects of Power (OOPs

) are made by People of Power (POPs

). In this case we would be speaking about empus. I'm not so sure that any of the few real empus left in this world are spending much time making arcane forms of keris like the buda and if they did (i.e. if someone commissioned empu Djeno) then i would imagine there would be some clear provenance to the piece. Now POPs who are not smiths can make an object into an OOPs through intention and ritual. If i bought a newly made keris buda and made it my ritual athame it would indeed accumulate power thru use by a POPs. But i wouldn't count on aquiring a newly made keris buda and measuring much energy off it. Of course, ALL THINGS will have energy, it is the natural of the sub-atomic universe, but you know what i mean.

Sorry guys, i know that was painful for some, but i personally find it difficult to discuss keris whille dismissing it's esorteric side. Again it's a matter of intention, of creation and use. If we were talking about steak knives, i'm sure i would have to mention the meat.

Battara · 25th January 2005, 10:30 PM

Although I am not a metalurgist (spell?) I can speak to at least one point regarding pitting. Pitting startes either from specific acid concentration on one spot (like a drop of blood spatter on a blade) or on impurities in the metal that will oxidize quicker than the rest of the blade. Also, acidity varies from milimeter to milimeter in nature (for example in acidic soil). Even rusting or even patina comes from human intervention in some form or fashion (even in storage where patina may appear even).

mykeris · 25th January 2005, 11:57 PM

I agree with you Rasdan and Sakti. lets see real pictures of it and then aunthenticate. Seeing is believing. Much better, if someone can post even photos of other fake buda kerises for comparison.

DAHenkel · 25th January 2005, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sakhti777

Your keris could be new or maybe ancient, no one knows, because till now I dont see anybody in this forum sending the right photos of original k.buda, mostly alarmed with assumptions without even seeing or owning one or may I say refrain to send one scared of being denied and condemned.

Nobody is condemning anybody here Sakhti - take my opinion or don't but please don't assume I don't know anything about what I'm talking about because I don't post photo's. There are plenty of photos of legitimate, provenanced keris of this sort out there. If you've got the time to scan and post them, please feel free. I however don't have that kind of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sakhti777

I am sure the smith can produce uneven effects on a new blade any time.

And I am quite sure that this is in fact impossible, or very nearly impossible to recreate natural blade wear properly. Acids like HCL attack the entire surface of the blade. In the above example there is little or no pitting whatsoever. The surface of the blade has been more or less uniformly eaten away, leaving only the wide cratering effect that gives an almost flint blade-like appearance.

However, whether in relic or in archaeological conditions, rust attacks the surface of the blade irregularly. While surface rust may cover the entire blade, deep pitting only occurs where the rust is able to take root and eat deeply into the blade. Thus, the pitting will be irregular. In traditionally kept keris, where rust may have occurred on occasion and then arrested subsequently through cleaning the pitting will be highly localized and relatively minor in extent. The surface wear will be limited to the effects of warangan and other caustic substances used to clean and patinate the blade. Also, rust and wear will have a tendency to work along weld lines and even get in underneath the surface of poor welds, creating buckling.

While a metalurgist or someone with a background in metalurgy (Empu Kumis?) might be able to speak to this in more technical teminology and eplain the underlying reasons for how pitting and wear occurs, most of us have to rely on experience. Judging a blade is often the combination of many different inputs. Weight, feel, workmanship, etc. etc. Often the faker gets some things right but then blows something or another.

I'd say it is extraordinarily rare that a faker does get it all right and creates the type of work that will confuse an experienced collector or scholar. For the most part the fakers cannot afford to put the kind of effort needed to create a convincing piece of work. Its far easier and cheaper to create fakes that will take in the gullible and unsuspecting and mass produce them cheaply.

I would once again encourage anyone who has not done so to read back through the archives for relevant information. Many of us have been at this for 5 or more years and it is not easy to re-write everything each time the subject comes up.

25th January 2005, 07:06 AM	#3
Sakhti777 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Penang Posts: 14	There's now many new k. buda being produced in Indonesia to meet market demand, however none of those, in terms of its finishing, could match the prototype buda. Your keris could be new or maybe ancient, no one knows, because till now I dont see anybody in this forum sending the right photos of original k.buda, mostly alarmed with assumptions without even seeing or owning one or may I say refrain to send one scared of being denied and condemned. The overall physical and internal presentation of your keris,do invite me to have a second thought. In my humble opinion, I would rather categorise your keris as an 'early keris' not of original buda but bethok buda of later period which I think Allan Maisey is familiar off. Severe pittings and corrosion of the blade not necessarily to mean it is the real one. I am sure the smith can produce uneven effects on a new blade any time. The hair found at the metuk acts as a 'spiritual strengthen tool' between the owner and the so called 'Chee' or energy of the keris. Last edited by Sakhti777; 25th January 2005 at 08:48 AM.

24th January 2005, 10:57 PM	#1
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Newly made. This kind of wear is caused by Hydrochloric Acid. Its too even and the pitting is extremely deep, giving the blade the look of a flint blade. There are a whole lot of these artificially aged bethok/buddha blades being made today. Just browse ebay. You'll find 3 or 4 usually. The funny thing is, the legitimately old ones usually look to be in better shape than the new ones. But hey, if it was given to you, whats to worry about?

24th January 2005, 11:54 PM	#2
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	Thanks DAHenkel. I have many more to learn. Do you have photo samples of the real ones or do you own any of this kind, an original one? Pictures taken from the original ones would help. TQ

25th January 2005, 07:54 AM	#4
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	Im really confused of this kind of keris. I'm sure all of u guys had seen a lot of it. Due to the abundance of it, how can we know which is the genuine stuff? Me myself have a tendancy to say it is a new keris if showed to me, but how can we be sure? Perhaps the one on front of our nose is the genuine thing. God knows. Is the keris buda in the late Mr. Bambang's encyclopedia genuine? I believe if i had the keris in the encyclopedia in my hands and showed it to others, they will plainly say that it is a fake. But, since it is in the book, perhaps majority of the keris lovers will say it is authentic. (Of course, since its from a credible source) What im trying to say is, both the so called "fake" and the "genuine" article looks damn similar. And also, if we are evaluating keris in their energy side, some people told me that even the new keris buda have some energy. Perhaps the difference is only the strength. But this is not possible to be gauged by keris lovers that dont hav the "energy" knowledge. Only the esoteric guys can measure this. What about the rest of us that worship the keris for its exoteric? In my opinion, if we have at least 2 or 3 samples of the so called genuine keris buda, we can have some bench mark on determining the authenticity. So, I'm begging u guys that have the genuine keris buda that u are at least 80% sure of the authenticity to show us the picture of the kerisses. At least we can evaluate the kerisses and disscuss some more, why it is genuine.

25th January 2005, 08:09 AM	#5
Sakhti777 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Penang Posts: 14	Yes Rasdan, that's a wise thing to do. Show to us genuine photos of keris Buda and not excerpts. Bambang`s keris buda would have the same fate if posted to this forum. Can we hear from Paul De Souza?

25th January 2005, 01:12 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	just a thought, would it not be just as useful, if not more so to post pictures of known fake types. if, as it was said, there are normally 3 or 4 on ebay all the time, a standard could be reached for people to reference to. no-one would go to a lot of trouble to make just one fake, without making a batch and dispersing it slowly onto a growing market. at least those with less experience in keris (myself included) would know to doubt first. after 100+ years, there is less chance of coming across more than one identical genuine piece. there was a seller in england who imported many fakes over the last 20 years (not s.e asian). as he brought them in bulk and sold them across the board, those that saw them would always recognise the type. i have seen pieces from these batches appearing now (years later) on well known, reliable websites and trustworthy auction sites innocently labelled as genuine. they are not to know as they didnt see them come in.

25th January 2005, 10:30 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,310	Although I am not a metalurgist (spell?) I can speak to at least one point regarding pitting. Pitting startes either from specific acid concentration on one spot (like a drop of blood spatter on a blade) or on impurities in the metal that will oxidize quicker than the rest of the blade. Also, acidity varies from milimeter to milimeter in nature (for example in acidic soil). Even rusting or even patina comes from human intervention in some form or fashion (even in storage where patina may appear even).

25th January 2005, 11:57 PM	#9
mykeris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 278	I agree with you Rasdan and Sakti. lets see real pictures of it and then aunthenticate. Seeing is believing. Much better, if someone can post even photos of other fake buda kerises for comparison.