long chinese dadao execution ''sword'' ?

Peter Dekker · 20th January 2020, 05:37 PM

Agreed, a north Vietnamese trường đao (長刀).

Typical Vietnamese features are the very dramatic widening in width combined with the concave clipped tip. Also the small guard and its decoration point towards northern Vietnam.

The wrap is indeed fairly recent. Apart from the type of cord, it is also the way the cord is wrapped at the pommel that looks like: "I don't know what to do here".

It looks like the hollow part of the guard is directed towards the pommel. Is this the case, or is it massive and just this thick?

As for the executioner's attribution, there are some photos made around 1900 that do show these in the hands of Vietnamese headsmen.

EDIT: I had originally attached pictures of three headsmen with such swords, but someone complained that his grandson was also browsing the forum and kids don't need to see it. I respect that.

But I believe that like in China, there was a degree of freedom as to what weapon would be used for this purpose. You also see Chinese executions performed with the dadao, even though it was not the weapon's main reason for existence either.

Some of these come in pairs with a smaller and a larger one, and I have also seen them with damage from other blades that indicate they were fighting weapons that sometimes were also used for executions.

Ren Ren: Fascinating info about the Vietnamese creepers! I quite like the work, especially in mother-of-pearl, but had not been aware of their significance.

Ren Ren · 20th January 2020, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Dekker

Ren Ren: Fascinating info about the Vietnamese creepers! I quite like the work, especially in mother-of-pearl, but had not been aware of their significance.

Thanks Peter! There is another symbol characteristic only for Vietnam - sword and bunch of books. Rarely, but it occurs as an inlay on the scabbard of ceremonial swords. This is a sign of a patriotic scientist.

Peter Dekker · 21st January 2020, 11:14 AM

Ha, wonderful! I had seen the motif before but had not been able to find its meaning. Do you have a good reference on Vietnamese symbology?

Nice piece that ceremonial pole arm. The jian is purely Ming, with that open pommel. Quite nice how Vietnam retained earlier Chinese design features that fell out of use in China.

Ren Ren · 22nd January 2020, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Dekker

Ha, wonderful! I had seen the motif before but had not been able to find its meaning. Do you have a good reference on Vietnamese symbology?

In Russian there is a good book "The Magic World of Patterns. Encyclopedia of Ornamental Motifs of Southeast Asia" (edition of the State Museum of Oriental Art) and an excellent article by the famous ethnographer Y. V. Chesnov "The myth of the sword and the beginning of statehood in East Indochina." About the symbolism of creepers, pumpkin and grapes shoots , I took from there. My friend Vladimir Vetyukov (Ph.D., his dissertation is devoted to the Vietnamese military of the Late Lê era) told me about the symbol of the sword and a bunch of books.

Kubur · 22nd January 2020, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ren Ren

the symbol of the sword and a bunch of books.

Yes

The Eight Precious Things often occur as decorative motives and sometimes individually as Chinese porcelain base marks. They are from top left; the Jewel or "pearl", the Cash coin, the Open Lozenge, the Pair of Books, the Solid Lozenge, the Musical Stone, the Pair of Horns and the Artemisia Leaf.

pair of books

Ren Ren · 22nd January 2020, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kubur

Yes

The Eight Precious Things often occur as decorative motives and sometimes individually as Chinese porcelain base marks. They are from top left; the Jewel or "pearl", the Cash coin, the Open Lozenge, the Pair of Books, the Solid Lozenge, the Musical Stone, the Pair of Horns and the Artemisia Leaf.
pair of books

This is a very interesting and rare version of the "Eight treasures" ornament (in Chinese 八寶 Ba bao). I think it was popular in the Ming era.
In part, it coincides with the Buddhist ornament "Eight treasures of the perfect king Chakravartin".

Peter Dekker · 23rd January 2020, 10:42 AM

Hi,

Interesting set indeed. There are many sets of eight precious symbols in use, they seem to have standardized more towards the end of the Qing. The "Eight Buddhist Treasures" at least in Chinese art were somewhat more rigid in composition.

20th January 2020, 05:37 PM	#1
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 64	Agreed, a north Vietnamese trường đao (長刀). Typical Vietnamese features are the very dramatic widening in width combined with the concave clipped tip. Also the small guard and its decoration point towards northern Vietnam. The wrap is indeed fairly recent. Apart from the type of cord, it is also the way the cord is wrapped at the pommel that looks like: "I don't know what to do here". It looks like the hollow part of the guard is directed towards the pommel. Is this the case, or is it massive and just this thick? As for the executioner's attribution, there are some photos made around 1900 that do show these in the hands of Vietnamese headsmen. EDIT: I had originally attached pictures of three headsmen with such swords, but someone complained that his grandson was also browsing the forum and kids don't need to see it. I respect that. But I believe that like in China, there was a degree of freedom as to what weapon would be used for this purpose. You also see Chinese executions performed with the dadao, even though it was not the weapon's main reason for existence either. Some of these come in pairs with a smaller and a larger one, and I have also seen them with damage from other blades that indicate they were fighting weapons that sometimes were also used for executions. Ren Ren: Fascinating info about the Vietnamese creepers! I quite like the work, especially in mother-of-pearl, but had not been aware of their significance. Last edited by Peter Dekker; 21st January 2020 at 05:31 PM.

21st January 2020, 11:14 AM	#3
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 64	Ha, wonderful! I had seen the motif before but had not been able to find its meaning. Do you have a good reference on Vietnamese symbology? Nice piece that ceremonial pole arm. The jian is purely Ming, with that open pommel. Quite nice how Vietnam retained earlier Chinese design features that fell out of use in China.

23rd January 2020, 10:42 AM	#7
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 64	Hi, Interesting set indeed. There are many sets of eight precious symbols in use, they seem to have standardized more towards the end of the Qing. The "Eight Buddhist Treasures" at least in Chinese art were somewhat more rigid in composition.