16th and 17th century gun screws

SchildaBrit · 1st January 2020, 07:50 PM

Forum members will please forgive me for warming up a very old thread. But first of all, my thanks to Pukka Bundook for directing me to thisforum, and many thanks (alas, posthumously!) to Michael "matchlock" for his contributions, the like of which I have found nowhere else.

I have long been frustrated by the standard works on old firearms, which tend to give great space to stylistic elements of decoration, and very little information on technical development. Hayward, Hoff, Lenk and Luegs - I have them all. And the examples presented in these books are items that one is unlikely ever to get one's paws on, much less be permitted to dismantle!

In short, they are not much use to anyone who wants to know how these ancient pieces were constructed, as opposed to decorated, and of zero use to anyone, such as my self, who is interested in actually shooting old firearms.

As my first small contribution to the somewhat sparse knowledge of the internal technology of old firearms I would therefore like to present a screw. Not a glorious example of classical decoration that is utterly irrelevant for the functioning of a gun, but a vital piece to hold it together!

Here is it (if I can manage to post fotos):

OK stop here for the moment. I now have to learn how to post fotos. Will be back soon - I hope!

Spottedbull · 2nd January 2020, 06:00 AM

great old thread, just wish I could read the language on the photos...

Pukka Bundook · 2nd January 2020, 04:25 PM

Patrick,

Very Good to see you here!
If you have troubles with the photos, send me them and I'll post till you have it sorted out.
It Is a pity Michael went before hos time; You could maybe have visited him from where you are quite easily.

Spotted Bull,

Welcome and hope you can figure the gist in the above thread. :-)

All the best,
Richard.

SchildaBrit · 2nd January 2020, 08:26 PM

Well here goes with photos...

Hmmm????

Pukka, what am I missing here?

Went to "Additional Options" then "Attach Files".

2 jpegs sized about 25k uploaded - and nothing appears.

fernando · 3rd January 2020, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SchildaBrit

... 2 jpegs sized about 25k uploaded - and nothing appears.

Are you sure ?

SchildaBrit · 3rd January 2020, 12:42 PM

Thanks Fernando! It really did not show up yesterday evening, but since then you have given me the "all clear" and I can make progress.

Now I can finally complete the post.

The two photos show a screw taken out of a target rifle by Franz Xaver Zellner, who is well recorded in Stöckel (with several others of his family).
He was an Austrian gunsmith who died in 1768.

So we may deduce that such screws were in use long after the 16th century (as hypothesised in the photo by "matchlock"). That is the problem with technological changes - the forces of "we've always done it like that" are very strong in such specialist areas.

This oddly shaped "hand-carved" screw is (still!) used to hold the back end of the set trigger block in position, the front end being clamped by the trigger guard (a popular method). The bent head enables it to serve as a fixing lug for this purpose. Presumably that was considered to be simpler than making the trigger baseplate longer, with a fixing hole drilled through it and a conventional screw inserted, as would be the modern method.

At present, the rifle is undergoing its 250-year service in my cellar. Like most of my rifles, it's no museum piece, but the bore is great for its age. "Pure" collectors will cringe, but my point of view is that guns are tools, and non-functional tools are of no use to me. And I thus consider it proper to do what anyone of the period would have done to keep them functional.

I would have posted a couple more photos, but they are over the 1Mb limit and I now have to puzzle out how to reduce the resolution so that I can upload them.

And a great New Year to you all from Patrick.

fernando · 3rd January 2020, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SchildaBrit

... "Pure" collectors will cringe, but my point of view is that guns are tools, and non-functional tools are of no use to me. And I thus consider it proper to do what anyone of the period would have done to keep them functional...

I also do my best to have my pieces (mechanically) functional, as in fact most of them are; although shooting with them is out of the question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SchildaBrit

would have posted a couple more photos, but they are over the 1Mb limit and I now have to puzzle out how to reduce the resolution so that I can upload them..

I am no computer wizard. What i do is, when they happen to be 'too heavy' even within size allowed, i copy them in my computer to a different image application, one that reproduces them with 'lighter' features; or just resize them till they become uploadable... if not too small, of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SchildaBrit

...a great New Year to you all from Patrick...

Same to you Patrick

.

1st January 2020, 07:50 PM	#1
SchildaBrit Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 33	A "new" screw discovered Forum members will please forgive me for warming up a very old thread. But first of all, my thanks to Pukka Bundook for directing me to thisforum, and many thanks (alas, posthumously!) to Michael "matchlock" for his contributions, the like of which I have found nowhere else. I have long been frustrated by the standard works on old firearms, which tend to give great space to stylistic elements of decoration, and very little information on technical development. Hayward, Hoff, Lenk and Luegs - I have them all. And the examples presented in these books are items that one is unlikely ever to get one's paws on, much less be permitted to dismantle! In short, they are not much use to anyone who wants to know how these ancient pieces were constructed, as opposed to decorated, and of zero use to anyone, such as my self, who is interested in actually shooting old firearms. As my first small contribution to the somewhat sparse knowledge of the internal technology of old firearms I would therefore like to present a screw. Not a glorious example of classical decoration that is utterly irrelevant for the functioning of a gun, but a vital piece to hold it together! Here is it (if I can manage to post fotos): OK stop here for the moment. I now have to learn how to post fotos. Will be back soon - I hope!

2nd January 2020, 08:26 PM	#4
SchildaBrit Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 33	A "new" screw (continued) Well here goes with photos... Hmmm???? Pukka, what am I missing here? Went to "Additional Options" then "Attach Files". 2 jpegs sized about 25k uploaded - and nothing appears. Attached Images

3rd January 2020, 12:42 PM	#6
SchildaBrit Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 33	Now it works ! Thanks Fernando! It really did not show up yesterday evening, but since then you have given me the "all clear" and I can make progress. Now I can finally complete the post. The two photos show a screw taken out of a target rifle by Franz Xaver Zellner, who is well recorded in Stöckel (with several others of his family). He was an Austrian gunsmith who died in 1768. So we may deduce that such screws were in use long after the 16th century (as hypothesised in the photo by "matchlock"). That is the problem with technological changes - the forces of "we've always done it like that" are very strong in such specialist areas. This oddly shaped "hand-carved" screw is (still!) used to hold the back end of the set trigger block in position, the front end being clamped by the trigger guard (a popular method). The bent head enables it to serve as a fixing lug for this purpose. Presumably that was considered to be simpler than making the trigger baseplate longer, with a fixing hole drilled through it and a conventional screw inserted, as would be the modern method. At present, the rifle is undergoing its 250-year service in my cellar. Like most of my rifles, it's no museum piece, but the bore is great for its age. "Pure" collectors will cringe, but my point of view is that guns are tools, and non-functional tools are of no use to me. And I thus consider it proper to do what anyone of the period would have done to keep them functional. I would have posted a couple more photos, but they are over the 1Mb limit and I now have to puzzle out how to reduce the resolution so that I can upload them. And a great New Year to you all from Patrick. Last edited by SchildaBrit; 3rd January 2020 at 12:47 PM. Reason: add text

2nd January 2020, 06:00 AM	#2
Spottedbull Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Maypearl, Texas USA Posts: 10	great old thread, just wish I could read the language on the photos...

2nd January 2020, 04:25 PM	#3
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Patrick, Very Good to see you here! If you have troubles with the photos, send me them and I'll post till you have it sorted out. It Is a pity Michael went before hos time; You could maybe have visited him from where you are quite easily. Spotted Bull, Welcome and hope you can figure the gist in the above thread. :-) All the best, Richard.