Afghani pulwar: old and ( perhaps) revealing

[ariel]

Yes, Indians brought it to Sumatra together with Hulu Meu Apet ( original Gulabhati).
BTW, is it piso pEdang or piso pOdang? I remember a version that Podang was derived from Portuguese espadao ( -ao pronounced as -ang), "a sword". We have Portuguese gurus here, let them enlighten us.

Sword with both of those handles seem to have a whiff of European influence, with Achenese Peudeung often carrying European blades. Apparently, it was not popular there; the locals preferred swords that were heavy in their distal end to amplify their slashing power.

[Battara]

I stand corrected and I think your spelling is the correct one - piso podang.

Thanks for catching that one .

[ariel]

Not at all: it's my autistic obsessive-compulsive demon raising its head:-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Difficult to see exactly the way this hilt developed but I tend to think it was closed originally but in some the top fell off thus the open examples available. Were these strange pommels not used as fillers for seeds or small pebbles? in fact below is a turbaned or ball pommel and it indeed is filled with small pebbles or seeds ...

Pulouar is a Hindu word meaning flower from its more accurate spelling PHULA. Tulvar probably came from the same word. I wondered if it was from the Poppy? I show the poppy seed box below>>> is this perhaps the origin of the pommel in this case?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...7&page=4&pp=30 illustrates a number of similarities and on the Blade at Ariels example it has peculiar parallel lines. Are these representative of the tears of the afflicted grooves and in the copper/brass inlaid dots are these pearls or tears in solid form?

[mahratt]

Ibrahiim al Balooshi, original and beautiful version.

[ariel]

Ibrahiim,
We have already went thru a fanciful theory of the meaning and importance of “ phul” ( see topic “On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types”).
We can also consider the possibility that perhaps the very word “pulwar” is a phonetically -mistaken variant of “ Tulwar” that entered European books either through a leaden ear of a European traveler, or through a pitch-perfect ear of the same traveler listening to a toothless Afghani. Indeed, the locals only shrug their shoulders in incomprehension when being asked about “ pulwar”: they call this saber “ shamshir”. The calamity of a straight-bladed peshkabz allegedly called “ Karud” is an example how phonetic tricks can find their way into European books and usage:-)

The connection between poppyseed boxes and hemispheric Afghani pommels seems unlikely, IMHO: those boxes are fully spherical ( as in your example). Had your suggestion been the case, we would have seen predominance of spherical form, but in reality they are almost as rare as hen’s teeth. Local and rare variants of spherical pommels stemming from hemispherical ones can be seen in other cultures: Sumatran Piso Podang’s open hemispherical cup became solid spherical one on Borneo Iban analogs.

Any hypothesis may be original and beautiful, but it does not make is plausible.

[Jens Nordlunde]

The answer to how the Piso Podang hilt got spread to other countries may be found in Suvarnadvipa. Hindu Colonies of the Far East. By Dr. R.C.Majumdar. Cosmo Publications, India, 2004. Vol. I-II.
It starts in the 8th century and goes on till it all broke down centuries later. This Indian influence is likely still to be seen in some of the countries, and most cetrainly on some of the hilts.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Ibrahiim,
We have already went thru a fanciful theory of the meaning and importance of “ phul” ( see topic “On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types”).
We can also consider the possibility that perhaps the very word “pulwar” is a phonetically -mistaken variant of “ Tulwar” that entered European books either through a leaden ear of a European traveler, or through a pitch-perfect ear of the same traveler listening to a toothless Afghani. Indeed, the locals only shrug their shoulders in incomprehension when being asked about “ pulwar”: they call this saber “ shamshir”. The calamity of a straight-bladed peshkabz allegedly called “ Karud” is an example how phonetic tricks can find their way into European books and usage:-)

The connection between poppyseed boxes and hemispheric Afghani pommels seems unlikely, IMHO: those boxes are fully spherical ( as in your example). Had your suggestion been the case, we would have seen predominance of spherical form, but in reality they are almost as rare as hen’s teeth. Local and rare variants of spherical pommels stemming from hemispherical ones can be seen in other cultures: Sumatran Piso Podang’s open hemispherical cup became solid spherical one on Borneo Iban analogs.

Any hypothesis may be original and beautiful, but it does not make is plausible.

Salaams Ariel,

Any hypothesis may be original and beautiful, but it does not make is plausible.

I agree but then neither does it make it implausible. Local folk often shrug their shoulders when they don't know something....it is hardly proof.
NOW whereas I realize the difficulty note that I have shown a ''whats in a word '' derivative that is very plausible...TULVAR. PULOUAR. Add the Hindu word Phula meaning flower and you will agree that the poppy seed arrangement looks very similar to the pommel in the Turban/Ball form.

If I can focus on the hilt for a moment on Tulvar Pulouar and the word for flower Phul. Its not a word describing the Hilt but only the Pommel.

I ADD that in the case of Turban/Ball form and Tulvar Pulouar that seeds or pebbles were put in both possibly to alert the owner that someone was stealing their sword? My thought on the almost identical Turban/Ball form is that this possibly came earlier but did not defend the sword hand so well as the broader half ball or Tulvar Pulouar style... so it fell from use...

Regarding the variation and mistakes bouncing around other regional weapons; they may occasionally be similar in generating errors but hardly any are the same thus there are no hard and fast rules and none that I can judge of being the fault of the language they are printed in; while they may be part of the mystique, myth and legend of ancient tribal weaponry we call Ethnographic.